To much is made of short arbors

[Dude]

You know, just because someone doesn't agree with the theory why something works doesn't negate the fact that it does work.

Hashing through this over and over and over again, I seem to have gotten new insights. Here's what I got: the key point being (short arbor gun) that if the wedge was driven in farther, the barrel would move back closer to the cylinder.

So here's the cause and effect - the bullet tries to tear the barrel from the frame. That force hammers the wedge which then recoils causing the barrel to move towards the cylinder - since there is play in that direction and it can bounce back. Who knows how many times it bounces (vibrates)before the oscillations end? That would be a good subject for high speed photography.

Fixing the arbor depth removes that play, so no oscillations. No way to bounce back. The only wedge wear after that would be from the initial force of bullet hitting the forcing cone and sliding through the barrel. But that's not a sudden hit like whacking it from a distance with a ball peen hammer. If there was a gap, it would get hammered, otherwise it's more of a hard push.

 

[Pete453]

Then why take the time and space to post your opinion if you really don't care ?

My meaning was that I don't care if you guys believe me or not. I set my guns up the way I want, you do likewise.
I think the biggest problem here, if it is one, is most of us are a bunch of stubborn old guys set in our ways. I know I'm at that point. That's why I said it's a waste of space, we're not going to change each other's minds, and that's fine with me, no big deal.

 

[Pete453]

You know, just because someone doesn't agree with the theory why something works doesn't negate the fact that it does work.

Hashing through this over and over and over again, I seem to have gotten new insights. Here's what I got: the key point being (short arbor gun) that if the wedge was driven in farther, the barrel would move back closer to the cylinder.

So here's the cause and effect - the bullet tries to tear the barrel from the frame. That force hammers the wedge which then recoils causing the barrel to move towards the cylinder - since there is play in that direction and it can bounce back. Who knows how many times it bounces (vibrates)before the oscillations end? That would be a good subject for high speed photography.

Fixing the arbor depth removes that play, so no oscillations. No way to bounce back. The only wedge wear after that would be from the initial force of bullet hitting the forcing cone and sliding through the barrel. But that's not a sudden hit like whacking it from a distance with a ball peen hammer. If there was a gap, it would get hammered, otherwise it's more of a hard push.

I do believe Dude hit the nail on the head

 

[Gee Dog]

How old is too old to entertain or consider varying ideas? How old is too old to learn something you can admit you didn’t already know? I’m not there yet - hope I never am.

As far as “wasting space” goes, it’s not like you’re paying rent on a storage shed, bub.

 

[Pete453]

How old is too old to entertain or consider varying ideas? How old is too old to learn something you can admit you didn’t already know? I’m not there yet - hope I never am.

As far as “wasting space” goes, it’s not like you’re paying rent on a storage shed, bub.

I agree with your first post, I'm open to ideas that my life experiences indicate are plausible, but I'm not going to entertain an idea I don't agree with. I'm curious, I like learning things I don't know, but if it's something I already know to be true, why would I change my mind? Wouldn't that be wishy-washy? Bub.

And yes, we're wasting space, it's been hashed over plenty of times before, by the same two people, and neither are changing their outlook or opinion of the matter. This is America, I'm allowed to think any way I damn well please, bub. As are you.

 

[Dude]

How old is too old to entertain or consider varying ideas? How old is too old to learn something you can admit you didn’t already know? I’m not there yet - hope I never am.

As far as “wasting space” goes, it’s not like you’re paying rent on a storage shed, bub.

I like a good discussion (argument?) over opposing viewpoints. On the other hand, I've had too many discussions where the object wasn't to get at the truth, instead it turned into a debate where the one with the best tricks wins. I'm reminded of my X and my mom. Mom would suddenly switch to the devils advocate and get slippery with no stable point of view. No way she could be wrong! Pointless discussions. And usually she'd poke me with a needle to get started - hah! Arguing for the sake of arguing.

This particular discussion has gone on for months, often degrading to name calling. Often sliding into comparing dissimilar platforms as if they're the same.

However, it finally went on long enough that I've nailed the issue down as far as I can tell. It all makes sense to me - I can visualize the forces involved. It seemed right it had to do with oscillations, but didn't know the exact mechanism. Realizing it's the barrel's freedom to move towards the cylinder (in a short arbor gun) is what permits oscillations to hammer the wedge.

So thank you, guys, for going around and around on this till I could finally make sense of this.

 

[M. De Land]

Hello Mike,
Many thanks for the photos. Any chance of a photo of the top of the wedge out of the gun?
Is this one of the services offered under the Outlaw Mule along with the action shield as an upgrade? I am getting an older Uberti 1851 with a square back trigger guard in October. I'm sure it will need the full outlaw service plus perhaps the above listed options.

On another note, your nemesis seems to acknowledge the Walker wedge battered on both sides. Common sense directs me to believe the arbor to arbor well fix along with the wedge driving the arbor into the well correctly is the only recipe for a solid connection.
Failure to see that both sides getting battered means there is movement under force that only the proper arbor fix can eliminate. Correct me if 'm wrong but think short arbor guns are wacked both with recoil and a millisecond later when the bullet hits the force cone. This same opposing force is what destroys scopes on airguns.
Of course, I could be mistaken...(counted as a flat earther by some)
Thank you for all of the explanations and assistance.
Snoot

"There are none so blind as those who will not see."

I'm not Mikes nemesis, more like a sparing pardner that I don't happen to agree with some times. I don't have to agree with everything to appreciate his thoughts on various subjects.

 

[Bad Karma]

I'm not Mikes nemesis, more like a sparing pardner that I don't happen to agree with some times. I don't have to agree with everything to appreciate his thoughts on various subjects.

Kumbaya my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya my Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya
Someone's singing Lord, kumbaya
Someone's singing Lord, kumbaya
Someone's singing Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbayah
Someone's crying Lord, kumbaya
Someone's crying Lord, kumbaya
Someone's crying Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya
Someone's praying Lord, kumbaya
Someone's praying Lord, kumbaya
Someone's praying Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya
















;-)

 

[TarponStalker]

What was the question again ?

 

[nkbj]

Doesn't taking the slop out of a machine made of low strength steel and subject to such repetitive jolts make sense?

 

[M. De Land]

Kumbaya my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya my Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya
Someone's singing Lord, kumbaya
Someone's singing Lord, kumbaya
Someone's singing Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbayah
Someone's crying Lord, kumbaya
Someone's crying Lord, kumbaya
Someone's crying Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya
Someone's praying Lord, kumbaya
Someone's praying Lord, kumbaya
Someone's praying Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya
















;-)

Britsmoothy's video demonstrates what this thread is all about perfectly ! Still if it were mine I would end fit the arbor to stabilize the wedge and fix that dang flopping loading lever that makes me nuts !

 

[CaptainVane]

I aint seen a more useless non stop argument since i was on The Hull Truth site and saw 800 pages of Yamaha vs Mercury vs Suzuki vs Honda.
JFC. I love my Uberti .36. Shoots amazingly accurate at 40 yards. It isn’t shooting at national championships at Camp Perry Ohio. Until you “its got a short arbor” guys shoot mine don’t tell me its a defunct pos that requires a professional gunney to fix it.
JFC.

 

[springfield art]

What is this short arbor that people are about to go ape s*** on each other over.

Been shooting C&B for 40 years.

Did I miss out on 40 years of worrying?

I never heard of it until finding this site! But I'm not a frequent nor accuracy-minded guy; more like minute of pie plate.

 

[springfield art]

I aint seen a more useless non stop argument since i was on The Hull Truth site and saw 800 pages of Yamaha vs Mercury vs Suzuki vs Honda.
JFC. I love my Uberti .36. Shoots amazingly accurate at 40 yards. It isn’t shooting at national championships at Camp Perry Ohio. Until you “its got a short arbor” guys shoot mine don’t tell me its a defunct pos that requires a professional gunney to fix it.
JFC.

Good post!

 

[Crow Choker]

The why and how to determine and fix a short arbor has been going on for a long time. Things will quiet down, then another post gets it going again. Same thing on other forums I visit. All a person needs to do is visit the search function and archive's and you'll get the same do this and do that. It would save alot of time retyping all the same info. Reminds me of back in the 60's when everyone argued Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge. Not saying a short arbor isn't something to address, but.................

 

[bigstick6017555]

I do not think that the open top revolvers were ever designed to be a target or precision weapon as far as accuracy, it was designed to shot your enemy at a fairly close range, with out the bulk of a rifle, and have numerous shots to do it. Guns have always been tinkered with to improve accuracy, even in today's gun culture there is custom shops and gun smiths with ways to improve accuracy on your factory guns. There are cases where a factory gun can and will shoot right along with a custom gun, but odds are against that. Every firearm owner has his own expectations as to needed accuracy, observed a sign in a shop that stated " accuracy costs, how accurate do you want to be ". Never owned a Uberti Colt so I can not comment on those but the Piettas I own did not have the short problem. I have done some minor tune-ups on them, mostly the nipples were the biggest problems I run into, but as far as accuracy I did not see any huge increase. Usually seems like the day, the time, and my mental status that affects that. If you like the gun, and it does what you want, let it alone, if problems arrive than its time to tinker and ask questions.

 

[CaptainVane]

Every firearm owner has his own expectations as to needed accuracy, observed a sign in a shop that stated " accuracy costs, how accurate do you want to be ".

Ya we had 2 signs in the shop where we used to build Mustang 5.0 motors for racing.
1. Speed costs, how fast do you want to spend?
2. If its too loud, you're too old. Same thing. Different hobby,
Not criticiziing any one opinion, Opions are great, but some are taking it close to name calling, I hate to see this forum become that.

 

[45D]

Until you “its got a short arbor” guys shoot mine don’t tell me its a defunct pos that requires a professional gunney to fix it.
JFC.

Well, it does have one and if you'd read a little, it's an easy diy fix. Nobody ever said it " requires a professional gunney to fix it."

I never heard of it until finding this site! But I'm not a frequent nor accuracy-minded guy; more like minute of pie plate.

Well on all the other sites it's been a topic of discussion and been understood for over a decade!!

I do not think that the open top revolvers were ever designed to be a target or precision weapon as far as accuracy, it was designed to shot your enemy at a fairly close range, with out the bulk of a rifle, and have numerous shots to do it. Guns have always been tinkered with to improve accuracy, even in today's gun culture there is custom shops and gun smiths with ways to improve accuracy on your factory guns. There are cases where a factory gun can and will shoot right along with a custom gun, but odds are against that. Every firearm owner has his own expectations as to needed accuracy, observed a sign in a shop that stated " accuracy costs, how accurate do you want to be ". Never owned a Uberti Colt so I can not comment on those but the Piettas I own did not have the short problem. I have done some minor tune-ups on them, mostly the nipples were the biggest problems I run into, but as far as accuracy I did not see any huge increase. Usually seems like the day, the time, and my mental status that affects that. If you like the gun, and it does what you want, let it alone, if problems arrive than its time to tinker and ask questions.

It was designed to not beat itself up and it didn't have to be rifled with gain twist rifling if it wasn't supposed to be somewhat accurate at 100 yards. $20 was a lot of money back then for a so-so piece of equipment!!

You've never owned an Uberti (which all have a short arbors) but you have Piettas which don't have short arbors for the past dozen yrs so . . . there you go . THIS thread is about Uberti's and all the others that DO have short arbors and what to do about it and the WHY !! Maybe you came in in the middle of the " asking questions " part !?

Not criticiziing any one opinion, Opions are great, but some are taking it close to name calling, I hate to see this forum become that.

The thing is, it's really not an opinion. It's either a "correct to original build" or it's not. It's kinda like saying Colt didn't have a clue but the Italians got it right !!
As to the name calling and such,
It's a "peach"!!

( this is NOT a commercial)

Mike

 

[bigstick6017555]

It was designed to not beat itself up and it didn't have to be rifled with gain twist rifling if it wasn't supposed to be somewhat accurate at 100 yards. $20 was a lot of money back then for a so-so piece of equipment!!

You've never owned an Uberti (which all have a short arbors) but you have Piettas which don't have short arbors for the past dozen yrs so . . . there you go . THIS thread is about Uberti's and all the others that DO have short arbors and what to do about it and the WHY !! Maybe you came in in the middle of the " asking questions " part !?
Mike

I am fully in step with what you say and do for these guns. I did not say, or insinuate these guns are not accurate, as I see it they were built as defense weapons, not a target gun, and to shoot as good as possible, and hold up under rigorous conditions. I am sure that people have done some great shots at great distances with them, but the greater majority of them that were used yesteryear and today, were and are 50 yards and under. Just because I never owned one does not mean I do not understand them. Helped out best friend of mine part time for many years that was a gunsmith by trade when his work load got heavy. I have advised many owners of UBERTI'S and others on the problems, and shot a few shots from them but not enough to fairly condemn them, before or after, I just prefer PIETTA'S. What I do see on this forum and others that folks do not like when they ask a question about the new to them UBERTI, that it is not up to power for the money. Maybe it is not, but a lot do not have the fiances for a $200 + tuneup and out of commission for a few months. And at no fault to them their handgun skills may not warrant the money and time. Like I said before if you like the gun, and it does what you want, let it alone, if problems arrive than its time to tinker and ask questions. Now if people want to condemn your skills and advice I fully understand your fluff

 

[45D]

I am fully in step with what you say and do for these guns. I did not say, or insinuate these guns are not accurate, as I see it they were built as defense weapons, not a target gun, and to shoot as good as possible, and hold up under rigorous conditions. I am sure that people have done some great shots at great distances with them, but the greater majority of them that were used yesteryear and today, were and are 50 yards and under. Just because I never owned one does not mean I do not understand them. Helped out best friend of mine part time for many years that was a gunsmith by trade when his work load got heavy. I have advised many owners of UBERTI'S and others on the problems, and shot a few shots from them but not enough to fairly condemn them, before or after, I just prefer PIETTA'S. What I do see on this forum and others that folks do not like when they ask a question about the new to them UBERTI, that it is not up to power for the money. Maybe it is not, but a lot do not have the fiances for a $200 + tuneup and out of commission for a few months. And at no fault to them their handgun skills may not warrant the money and time. Like I said before if you like the gun, and it does what you want, let it alone, if problems arrive than its time to tinker and ask questions. Now if people want to condemn your skills and advice I fully understand your fluff

I appreciate your view and honestly I think the Uberti is definitely the better of the 2 makers. I view the Pietta as more of a "one trick pony" and because of that, they can keep costs down ( on the open-top platform) which is a good thing. Their parts aren't as "refined" (Colt like) which means much more "massaging" to get them to operate more like a Colt. Uberti's on the other hand are much more Colt-like and much less "involved" in getting them "up to snuff" (functionally).
With the arbor length taken care of, the Uberti is an extremely robust revolver, haven't been able to run the same ammo in a Pietta offering yet. All my open-top shooters are Uberti's at this point. All are unmentionables. I'll get there . . .

As far as the ability for folks that can afford this or that believe me I know!! That's the whole reason for trying to give DIY tutorials/ideas. I'm personally more interested in the "Custom" end of the business at this point. More about recoil shield surface accuracy, headspace ( unmentionables) or recoil ring surface attention, cylinder face, total detail arbor out rebuild. So, no hurt feelings here, just want accurate expectations and dispelling "myths " we all heard when we were young.

Mike