To much is made of short arbors

[French Colonial]

I am fully in step with what you say and do for these guns. I did not say, or insinuate these guns are not accurate, as I see it they were built as defense weapons, not a target gun, and to shoot as good as possible, and hold up under rigorous conditions. I am sure that people have done some great shots at great distances with them, but the greater majority of them that were used yesteryear and today, were and are 50 yards and under. Just because I never owned one does not mean I do not understand them. Helped out best friend of mine part time for many years that was a gunsmith by trade when his work load got heavy. I have advised many owners of UBERTI'S and others on the problems, and shot a few shots from them but not enough to fairly condemn them, before or after, I just prefer PIETTA'S. What I do see on this forum and others that folks do not like when they ask a question about the new to them UBERTI, that it is not up to power for the money. Maybe it is not, but a lot do not have the fiances for a $200 + tuneup and out of commission for a few months. And at no fault to them their handgun skills may not warrant the money and time. Like I said before if you like the gun, and it does what you want, let it alone, if problems arrive than its time to tinker and ask questions. Now if people want to condemn your skills and advice I fully understand your fluff

True more than not

 

[CaptainVane]

Well, it does have one and if you'd read a little, it's an easy diy fix. Nobody ever said it " requires a professional gunney to fix it."



Well on all the other sites it's been a topic of discussion and been understood for over a decade!!




It was designed to not beat itself up and it didn't have to be rifled with gain twist rifling if it wasn't supposed to be somewhat accurate at 100 yards. $20 was a lot of money back then for a so-so piece of equipment!!

You've never owned an Uberti (which all have a short arbors) but you have Piettas which don't have short arbors for the past dozen yrs so . . . there you go . THIS thread is about Uberti's and all the others that DO have short arbors and what to do about it and the WHY !! Maybe you came in in the middle of the " asking questions " part !?



The thing is, it's really not an opinion. It's either a "correct to original build" or it's not. It's kinda like saying Colt didn't have a clue but the Italians got it right !!
As to the name calling and such,
It's a "peach"!!

( this is NOT a commercial)

Mike

Mike with all deference to to your vast knowledge more than me. This morning I wiggled both my Colts barrels as hard as i could. Not one bit of movement. Gap is .002. So what is this mysterious movement they all have that i am missing?

 

[Dude]

Mike with all deference to to your vast knowledge more than me. This morning I wiggled both my Colts barrels as hard as i could. Not one bit of movement. Gap is .002. So what is this mysterious movement they all have that i am missing?

Nobody said they ALL have short arbors. LOL

Perhaps going back to the beginning of the thread and reading all of the posts will enlighten you. Or is this supposed to be a slap in the face?

To answer your question (what is this mysterious movement they all have) it's the gap between the end of the arbor and the well it fits into. Sometimes wiggling the barrel isn't the way to tell if there's end play. Then again, perhaps yours is set up correctly. Lucky you.

 

[CaptainVane]

Nobody said they ALL have short arbors. LOL

Perhaps going back to the beginning of the thread and reading all of the posts will enlighten you. Or is this supposed to be a slap in the face?

To answer your question (what is this mysterious movement they all have) it's the gap between the end of the arbor and the well it fits into. Sometimes wiggling the barrel isn't the way to tell if there's end play. Then again, perhaps yours is set up correctly. Lucky you.

Cmon man! I never intended a slap in the face. I already said you know way more than i will. Ive read all the posts. Only thing I disagree with is EVERYTHING Uberti produces has a short arbor. I never said a word to insult you skill. Im gonna bow out of this thread right now. Give it a rest.

 

[Bad Karma]

Cmon man! I never intended a slap in the face. I already said you know way more than i will. Ive read all the posts. Only thing I disagree with is EVERYTHING Uberti produces has a short arbor. I never said a word to insult you skill. Im gonna bow out of this thread right now. Give it a rest.

Don’t sweat it… it’s pretty common now that if you disagree with someone else on any point you’re somehow disrespecting them. Of course it’s nonsense but kind of the way of the world.

 

[M. De Land]

Cmon man! I never intended a slap in the face. I already said you know way more than i will. Ive read all the posts. Only thing I disagree with is EVERYTHING Uberti produces has a short arbor. I never said a word to insult you skill. Im gonna bow out of this thread right now. Give it a rest.

This is all my fault but I have to say I'm glad I made this thread ! I actually work on these guns rather often and have for a lot of years and am still learning stuff from hearing other points of view and opinion. Some of my notions are reinforced and some are adjusted.
I have no use for an echo chamber that only supports my own notions ! I appreciate opposing view and the chance to hash things out and have my own ideas and opinions challenged so as to get better at working on them. I want to know about how and why things work as they do and the various strengths and weaknesses involved.
One thing I picked up here on this thread is the possibility of wedge slack to the rear from the thrust vector forward and then the barrel bouncing backward off the wedge and front of the arbor slot. I had never before considered this possibility as the a reason for wedge batter but find it another possible variable other than wedge fit and hardness as the only cause.
I heard a man once say a preacher must have a heart as tender as a baby and a hide like a water buffalo ! I find that very good advice generally and especially on the internet.
I'll conclude by saying, no one is making anyone read these threads and one can ignore them at any point so wheres the beef ?

 

[45D]

Mike with all deference to to your vast knowledge more than me. This morning I wiggled both my Colts barrels as hard as i could. Not one bit of movement. Gap is .002. So what is this mysterious movement they all have that i am missing?

Hey, no disrespect here !! Doesn't really have anything to do with me!! Lol.

If you drive the wedge in, does the barrel lock up the cylinder?
Better than that, if you drop a small thin washer down the arbor hole and assemble the revolver, does it go together? If so, how can that be if the arbor is touching the bottom of the arbor hole?


And just to clear things up, I said that Uberti's arbors are short and I'll stand by that. I've never had one in 10 + yrs come through the shop ( that'd be 100's) was either correct or long ( includes 2nd Gen Colts, ASM's, pre 2010 Pietta's, . . . ).
As far as that goes, I'm in the middle of fitting a 2nd barrel (short) to a new (2020) Engraved Pietta that had a short arbor for a customer.
There's no " shame" in a short arbor, just fix it and move on. If you don't want to fix it fine, have fun anyway (with broken revolver )!!

Mike

 

[Crow Choker]

And so on it goes, thee Ol he says she says. I've been ignoring this thread for a while, did read all of the posts but I'll say what IMO needs to be said.

Only thing I disagree with is EVERYTHING Uberti produces has a short arbor.

I've been saying this for along time both here and on the CAS Forum.

And just to clear things up, I said that Uberti's arbors are short and I'll stand by that.

Mike

I know you have Mike, both here, on the CAS Forum, and another forum you post on. I've been saying since you joined the CAS forum that 'not all Uberti's have short arbors', but you contend that they do and you ignore what I say and a number of CAS posters who have advised that they have Uberti's with correct arbors. Others on CAS say their Uberti's arbor is right and of the correct length and you always ignore and discount it. I've told you I have two that are right on and one that's tolerance is so close that the thinnest washer you can find or installing a screw as you do ground down to virtually nothing would be a waste of time to install. I have corrected the arbor lengths on all of my stable of Colts that needed it by installing a single or combination of four thicknesses of brass washers. A temporary fix but an effective one.

You've advised me that I don't check the arbor length in an accurate matter as you do, that by doing it as Pettigogger and others advocate it is incorrect and the Uberti's I claim to be ok are really to short. Well, I've done Pettifoggers method, your method, the "Other Mike's" method (gunsmith on CAS), which is an extended method of Pettifoggers only a person must make sure the arbor and arbor hole is free of any metal burrs. Well low and behold, I get the same results of either to short or right on. I've been going for a number of years to do as Pettifogger (CAS/SASS gunsmith) advocates and do as you do, drill a hole into the end of the arbor, but then instead of taping and installing a screw, epoxy a brass button (Dillion reload machine brass button for locating casings) into the hole in the arbor, then machine it to fit like you do a screw. By the way your method is like/similar to David Chicoine's method he wrote about in his Gunsmithing Guns of the Old West. Maybe that's where you got it, makes no difference. Anyway the brass washers do work, lengthen the arbor to make a solid contact. You did post somewhere that by using brass washers or a brass button that the brass will wear out eventually, will take a whole lotta more shooting that I do or IMO anyone could do. Well I don't plan or have need to shoot plus P pressures of cartridge guns in any of my cap n balls. No need, I just want to enjoy whatever boom, smoke, and accuracy the guns were designed for. I have modern solid frame single and double action revolvers for that and some semi-auto's ifin I wish to shoot something more powerful than any cap n ball was designed for, can and should produce. I've been banging around with these cappers since '72, have learned alot, still learning, but I won't be told I have a short arbor when I know it isn't.

The only thing I need to be careful of is when I disassemble is to make note of the washer/washers and replace them, usually with a dab of grease on them. They always stick on the end of the arbor or in the arbor hole when I separate the barrel and frame. I only disassemble one gun at a time so no mix-up occurs and have it written down the number and thicknesses of washers in each revolver. One of these days I'll get around to doing the Pettifogger treatment, but the washers have proven themselves for a number of years. FWIW using a split washer the diameter or a bit smaller than the arbor is not a real good fix even though some advocate it. Much like putting a spring in the hole and if to much tends to lengthen the arbor, if not enough, ya still have a short arbor.

OK, said my piece. Everyone have a good rest of the day and night. Mike no offense to you or your business, best of luck with all and blessings. I still recall you telling me you wanted to spread some facts, information, and fixes here on the MZ Forum that seemed to be lacking with alot of cap n ball shooters here. High fives to ya. Many are irritated by your contention that all Uberti's have short arbors when they've checked them properly and know they aren't. Sort of grinds on me also. At least yer not advocating stuffing aluminum foil into the arbor hole as a fix for a short arbor. LOL! I hope to call ya this week sometime as we PM'd each other the other day. Sometimes things need to be said and I say it with no grudge, offense, and/or animosity. Take care. Crow Choker

 

[45D]

That's fine CC.
I'm glad you have two correct length arbors from Uberti. But, I've still not had 1 come though the shop.
I had basically an argument with a guy on one of the other forums that just swore up and down that his 2nd Gen '60 was correct- he finally admitted that he did the washer test and could assemble the revolver. His arbor was just as short as the rest of them. I finally got it through to him that the Pettifogger "90° test" wasn't a good test. Glad you got the good pair.

As far as the hole in the end of the arbor, that's not what I use it for. If I did, you wouldn't need the spacer. See, folks don't read what I post so it shouldn't be that big of a deal . . .

What I do is a combination of two things:

1. The set screw I put in the arbor end doesn't protrude past the end of the arbor . . . like the brass button you mentioned . . . the other end of it (that reaches into the wedge slot) is what the wedge contacts. It's a "wedge bearing " . . . It's adjustable for how far the wedge will go into the slot . . . It has nothing to do with correcting the arbor length . . . that's what the spacer is for.

2. The spacer (mounted in the bottom of the arbor hole) is what the end of the arbor is against when you assemble the revolver.

Maybe that will clear it up for some folks.

Anyway, no ill thoughts or feelings on this end CC.

Mike

 

[45D]

Just for a little extra knowledge for some folks, I've tuned many many '72 Open Top revolvers ( an Uberti product) as well as many many '51 RM's . . . every one of them had a short arbor. So, I'm not being argumentative, just relaying my experience with these revolvers. You'd think that if Uberti screwed up and got some arbors right, at least 1 would have made it to the shop by now. I mean Pietta fixed it a dozen yrs ago but some get out with a slightly short arbor just like the one I posted on above.
I have corrected a pair of match revolvers for Tame Bill that had been previously set up with the "brass button " in the end of the arbor type fix (I had tuned a cap gun for him some time ago). He said my particular setup was superior and wanted me to do my setup to the worn out match guns. His other pair will be done soon. This is the reason I use steel ( stainless steel) rather than aluminum or brass. I don't want revolvers to come back . . . I figure it's worth passing it along.

Mike

 

[Pete453]

So, what's the consensus on how wedges should fit? I have a brand new Uberti 1860 I can experiment with. (After 400 rounds in 10 days, the other is no longer "brand new".)

Great guns aren't they? Love mine, with the internals polished and greased it's as smooth as they get.
I made a spacer, as Mike has detailed plenty of times here, and set the barrel up with .002 cylinder gap. Drive the wedge in tight, a couple extra taps with a screwdriver handle to make sure it's tight, and the cylinder face stays clean (I run it wide open, it's a deer hunter), and it will shoot all day without issue, and shows no wear. None.

dispelling "myths " we all heard when we were young

Incredible how shooting myths grow roots like an oak, and grown men will almost fight over them. Unreal.

Don’t sweat it… it’s pretty common now that if you disagree with someone else on any point you’re somehow disrespecting them. Of course it’s nonsense but kind of the way of the world.

Soft skin, fragile feelings. My mother was tougher than a lot of men these days. Makes me even more proud of her

 

[azmntman]

OK, I have read through the end of page 12. My opinion is worthless. I still do not understand this arbor stuff. I need to be shown stuff. Cannot read and do.

Now my sherrif is on the way after mike has corrected, adjusted, shortned, shimmed and/or gauged the arbor. I wont know what that meant though. Not dumb, I believe I could do brain surgery and be real good if I was SHOWN HOW. Whatever.

The sherrif will tell. I only sent it in cuz it was old (Mike will confirm its been down the road) and it wasn't setting caps reliably and I figured might as well get it ALL done. If it shoots as much better as I expected I will be sending 2-3 more for the "fix". My Pietta I got from billinorgeon shot a sub 2 " group out of the box (except the dumbflier) so it may be next. Then I can hunt squirles as we see above!

I will keepya posted. I was supposed to be working this AM as I got the wife off with tha daughter but I gave it 12 pages. Time to let the job speak for itself.

I wont lie to ya, if Mikes job was good you will hear, if not you will hear. Still wished I could do ths stuff (and could if I could afford to get to Mikes place and buy him beer while I watched him!. HA

Take care, I gonna work now. Really. I mean it.

 

[Crow Choker]

Good grief, was hoping this subject would have been put to bed. All anyone needs to do ref short arbors is read this thread, search for others of the same subject on the forum, and go to other forums such as CAS, The High Road, and a few others to become PhD's on the subject. Reminds me of watering weeds in your garden, ya water em and they just come back.