Traditional M/L Guns from India

[Pukka Bundook]

What is interesting, is that the poincons on top of the breech have been removed on my barrel, and it is very rare to find them still in place.
Why is a mystery, unless pried out for the precious metal.
The interesting part!...is that Tipu Sultan(1751 ti 1799) had a couple of these barrels stocked up, and they too had the poincins removed!
So, it appears that they were removed a very long time ago. One would think if a Sultan had such a barrel, it would still be as made, but not so.
This brings up the possibility that Tipu had them stocked as something of a novelty. He had a great many novel guns anyway.
here are a couple of poor pictures of a torador or two bearing these barrels.

These last two of Sindh form.

 

[rickystl]

Rick,
Your breech above looks remarkably like one from one of Michael's threads. "Schwamm Schnappschloss" (In English alphabet!)
this from the 1520's by the looks of it and not going to the thread to check!View attachment 183904View attachment 183905
Of course, all (Or vast majority) of Indian made barrels are breeched in this manner, but it shows where they maybe got the idea, and when!

Pukka: That's very interesting. And you've possibly made a good guess with that breech. Notice also the loop on the bottom of the barrel to pin fasten that section of the barrel to the stock - in the exact manner as the Torador barrels. It indeed makes one speculate that many of these ideas of barrel design go back further in time than many suspected. Thanks for posting this.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

The Omani style barrels. Pukka: Now you've done it. Talk about opening a can of worms. LOL !!!

As Pukka mentions, these are most commonly known today as Omani barrels as they were heavily favored by gun builders and locals in Oman. And, as Pukka mentioned. these beautiful, fluted barrels were attached to a crude and ugly stock. It would seem that barrel fluting itself originated somewhere in 16th Century Europe (?) I agree with Pukka that these barrels were traded to Oman. But where these Omani barrels were made is still a mystery. I'm more inclined to think they were made at one or more shops in Northern India for trade primarily to the Omani market, with some going to different areas in the Region. I even saw one of these barrels on an Afghan Jazail many years ago. And yes, the poincons are always missing. Imagine how long it would take to make just one of these barrels over a forge. I've read that these Omani barrels were made in two or three sections and forge welded together. Not sure.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

I bought this at a gun auction a few years ago. It's a 20th Century effort by someone to copy a Sindh form matchlock - but using an original Omani barrel. The stock and all the hardware were all hand made. I got the gun VERY cheap and as I recall was the only bidder. I bought it primarily just to get the barrel for my collection. But I'm temped to send the barrel off to Bobby Hoyt and have a new liner installed and threaded breech plug for shooting. And change the modern-looking barrel bands to something more appropriate. LOL
The breech of the barrel had some kind of grey, hardened clay in it I was able to remove with boiling water. But the bore needs more cleaning and study to know what I'm dealing with before sending it off for barrel work.

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

The Omani style barrels. Pukka: Now you've done it. Talk about opening a can of worms. LOL !!!

As Pukka mentions, these are most commonly known today as Omani barrels as they were heavily favored by gun builders and locals in Oman. And, as Pukka mentioned. these beautiful, fluted barrels were attached to a crude and ugly stock. It would seem that barrel fluting itself originated somewhere in 16th Century Europe (?) I agree with Pukka that these barrels were traded to Oman. But where these Omani barrels were made is still a mystery. I'm more inclined to think they were made at one or more shops in Northern India for trade primarily to the Omani market, with some going to different areas in the Region. I even saw one of these barrels on an Afghan Jazail many years ago. And yes, the poincons are always missing. Imagine how long it would take to make just one of these barrels over a forge. I've read that these Omani barrels were made in two or three sections and forge welded together. Not sure.

Rick

Doesn't Oman historically have fairly impressive edged weapon making? Maybe they never got the wood working part figured out haha.

 

[TobJohn]

I bought this at a gun auction a few years ago. It's a 20th Century effort by someone to copy a Sindh form matchlock - but using an original Omani barrel. The stock and all the hardware were all hand made. I got the gun VERY cheap and as I recall was the only bidder. I bought it primarily just to get the barrel for my collection. But I'm temped to send the barrel off to Bobby Hoyt and have a new liner installed and threaded breech plug for shooting. And change the modern-looking barrel bands to something more appropriate. LOL
The breech of the barrel had some kind of grey, hardened clay in it I was able to remove with boiling water. But the bore needs more cleaning and study to know what I'm dealing with before sending it off for barrel work.

RickView attachment 184216View attachment 184217View attachment 184218View attachment 184219View attachment 184220View attachment 184221View attachment 184222

If there ends up being a thread on East Asian arms (I am assuming you have examples of those) to round out the Asian guns, you will need to have a range day and determine the best and worst of the Asian matchlocks.

 

[rickystl]

Doesn't Oman historically have fairly impressive edged weapon making? Maybe they never got the wood working part figured out haha.

LOL. I believe Oman was best known for their silver work. It's quite impressive. But if you Google Omani matchlock you will see how crude the stocks are in comparison to the barrels.

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

LOL. I believe Oman was best known for their silver work. It's quite impressive. But if you Google Omani matchlock you will see how crude the stocks are in comparison to the barrels.

Rick

An Omani abu Fitila Matchlock gun for comment - Ethnographic Arms & Armour

I am now a lot less anxious about trying to carve my own stock...

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Ooooohhhhhh … just LOVE the fluted muzzle! Mongo want!

 

[Rudyard]

I bought this at a gun auction a few years ago. It's a 20th Century effort by someone to copy a Sindh form matchlock - but using an original Omani barrel. The stock and all the hardware were all hand made. I got the gun VERY cheap and as I recall was the only bidder. I bought it primarily just to get the barrel for my collection. But I'm temped to send the barrel off to Bobby Hoyt and have a new liner installed and threaded breech plug for shooting. And change the modern-looking barrel bands to something more appropriate. LOL
The breech of the barrel had some kind of grey, hardened clay in it I was able to remove with boiling water. But the bore needs more cleaning and study to know what I'm dealing with before sending it off for barrel work.

RickView attachment 184216View attachment 184217View attachment 184218View attachment 184219View attachment 184220View attachment 184221View attachment 184222

Right now it's my turn to wade into the great Omani ? barrel mystery . Like Pukka I bought & traded to get several of these barrels non had the poincion if I made up one long one into a conjectural Scots common matchlock . None exist but there are references of' Lunt werk' &' Rowet werk ' viz matchlock & Wheellock. if non survive and no description , Who can say me nay? .
So I made the conjectural one however unlikey. People traveled and such a barrel should it be acquired might well be got up into something like I made . If in my case I fettled an old worn George the fitht silver shilling and inlet it so it suggested the guessed at original . No part of the original barrel was harmed / altered no hole for the tang ect . I have Robert Wigginton's book on the' Firearms of Tipoo Sultan 'there are at least five automatic pan cover arranged carbines made up with the Omani ?? barrels he desrcibes them as Indian barrels that have been re used one shows the very Indian staggered row of engraved something I can't discern all are dated circa 1797 / 8 .When the barrels where re used . Like Pukka the only Gulf/ Oman matchlock I had was made stocked rough as bags no where near the care bestowed on the fluted barrels . My reuse for the Scots ML is one I made .The date of the Tipoo barrels is not stated but we could assume they where not considered antient my barrel is 48" long of .550 cal at clean muzzle and has a caligrathy that I was told read ' The work of Acmed . Aid & support come from God ,Victory is near 'this was the door man at Glenbow museum said it read , It's all squiggles to me .
Regards Rudyard
Pics later

 

[rickystl]

Pukka mentioned Sindh. Sindh is a mountainous area roughly between India and Pakistan. Sindh, like Japan, seems to have mostly skipped the flintlock period. Going from matchlock to percussion in local gun making. There are very few Sindhi guns with flintlocks. Shows how long the matchlock continued in use in this area of the World.

Here is an original rifle from Sindh. Although it's unmarked, it was probably made during the 3rd quarter of the 1800's. This is a nice, well made gun. The stock appears to be made of rosewood, probably from the Indian river area. There is a period wrist repair that was accomplished very well. Not surprised with the wide but very thin butt stock. The hardware is all engraved brass and silver. Still retains it's original sling with the front of the sling attached in a beautiful knot configuration. The percussion lock functions fine. Just needed the slightest bit of tuning. Single trigger pull is better than I would have expected. The barrel is a beautiful swamped octagon with a two-position, flip-up rear sight. 7-groove, deep cut rifling. It's a .41 caliber and shoots a .400 ball and 10-thousands patch very well. I think a thicker patch may work even better due to the deep cut of the rifling. But haven't tried it. Anyway, here are some pics.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

More photos.... The nipple has been replaced for use with standard #11 percussion caps. The original nipple used #12's. Notice how thin the butt stock is. Likely designed to be carried under the arm pit. Would be easy to get a break at the wrist.

 

[toot]

carbine, sorry cant' make it happen. cant' send pictures of it.

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

OK Rick ... it's a deal ... please put MY NAME on that one ... when the time comes!

 

[Rudyard]

" I have Scinde" cant recall by who or to who but in & about the Indian Mutiny or perhaps Later or could be earlier was one message sent. .All good " Prickly & untrimmed hedge stuff ' .

"One sword knot stolen from the camp will pay for all the School expenses of any Kurrum valley scamp who knows no word of mood or tenses, But being blessed with perfect sight picks of your Messmates left & right . The ball that whistles down the pass its message clear all flesh is grass". The Cranmers boast, The squadren's pride shot like a rabbit in a ride .The captives of our bow & spear are cheap alas as we are dear .
Top of my head part of Kipling's" Arithmetic on the Frontier "
Rudyard

Just looked it up close but no cigar! R

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Rick,
Can of worms! LOL!!
That's a very bonny swamped barrel.
And they put the trigger in the right spot!
Most feel like you need your hand under your arm to fire them!
This is the sort of thread that requires thought, but I have been thinking about these barrels for years and am not much further ahead!
Thanks for your thoughts above. It seems we are on the same page!...as far as we have got!

Rudyard,
Pleased you are still hanging in on this! You I know have the book about Tipu's guns so can and have enlightened us . Some photo of those with these fluted barrels would be appreciated if you can manage it.

John,
Yep! I thought looking at those Omani stocks would put your mind at rest! LOL

 

[Rudyard]

Rick,
Can of worms! LOL!!
That's a very bonny swamped barrel.
And they put the trigger in the right spot!
Most feel like you need your hand under your arm to fire them!
This is the sort of thread that requires thought, but I have been thinking about these barrels for years and am not much further ahead!
Thanks for your thoughts above. It seems we are on the same page!...as far as we have got!

Rudyard,
Pleased you are still hanging in on this! You I know have the book about Tipu's guns so can and have enlightened us . Some photo of those with these fluted barrels would be appreciated if you can manage it.

John,
Yep! I thought looking at those Omani stocks would put your mind at rest! LOL

Dear Pukka Yes & I took pics but my simple brain can't get its self round the photo sending but Katie will likely send it when she gets home from work she gave me written instructions but I can't grasp that stuff I could make a Tipoo carbine lock all'Bubberied' to blazes but the E gajet doesn't like me & persists in being ornery ( Toots one might be the same) .I bought two copies & sent one to a friend in PA but he's dead now & I've a restoration to do for the family so if its available Ile get it sent to you ' Very nicely presented book .
I have now found a typist eager to help write my book so Ile get out the first birth to biggest OE through West Africa 1965 . then if it floats Ile do the rest of my wanderings & tales in separate turns ' I kept diaries some very dog eared & not always too PC but they were never meant to be more than for my amusement. But now Ime urged to write the tales down & why not todays world is all safety safety , have to have money " what is your purpose? '' How long & what tickets you have ? ' Its all ' Boxlocks' t'was never like that my generation where free of all this control freak mania .Now this pathetic rabble left wing piles of Poo that pose as a Government are pushing huge anti gun absurdly expensive License fees .& controls pure anti gun nonsense ' 1984' &' Animal farm ' is how it's got today . & free speech gets called hate speech .' Brave New World?' P on it.
Cheers ? Rudyard

PS a 'Bubbris' is what is called a sort of thin S shapes that looks like a Tiger Stripe , Tippo was he fancied the' Tiger of Mysore '. & he was till one day at the siege of Seringapatam 1799 the company put the lid on him & his antics .The budding Arther Wellesley was in that scuffle . Going on to snotch other huge Native Army's at Assay five years later ' Didn't do to mess with Our Addy as Bonapart found out in Spain & one Sunday near the Village of Waterloo .
However I digress it's the muse that gets to me .
Regards Rudyard

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Aye, I remember that one now Rudyard.
You sent me pictures ages ago but see to have lost them. Computer or two fried.

Seems Tipu had a gunsmith or two employed to come up with novel ideas.
You would have fit right in!

Rick,
Have you any theories as to why barrels from India have such terrible bores?
We hardly ever see a decent one, though the outsides may look fine.
I can think of the odd and remote circumstance that could cause Some barrels to have bad bores, but why seemingly all of them is beyond explanation.
Cultural?
As in, it is old, no longer required so to heck with it?
I am sure the bores were very good originally.
Some guns surrendered in the mutiny may have been used ad not cleaned, but that would be only a handful of all the toradors we see, and only from the north of India.

 

[rickystl]

"Rick,
Can of worms! LOL!!
That's a very bonny swamped barrel.
And they put the trigger in the right spot!
Most feel like you need your hand under your arm to fire them!
This is the sort of thread that requires thought, but I have been thinking about these barrels for years and am not much further ahead!
Thanks for your thoughts above. It seems we are on the same page!...as far as we have got!"


LOL, I was fairly sure you would know what I meant. LOL Years later we still don't know where these Omani barrels were made. They just didn't keep any written documentation.

I bought my Sindhi rifle from a fellow collector in France a number of years ago. I'm guessing the trigger was placed in the "right" spot due to the use of the percussion lock. A touch of Western flavor maybe. The barrel does not show any signs of Damascus pattern. But still a beautiful barrel. Ottoman/Turkish maybe ? Or possibly a European export ? No markings on the gun anywhere.

Rick

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Earlier in the thread I mentioned the family likeness of some of the guns from Jaipur .
I won't show mine again as there are already pictures on earlier pages.
Here are a few more. you can see thay came from the same workshop. Differing lengths and some better made than others, but invariably the same awful engraving!
Also note the triggers. the shaping, cut out and leaf decoration may be unique to Jaipur. Also the hole behind the breech to extinguish the match. Is this unique to Jaipur?