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Very interesting thread!
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Whitmore, Duff, Wolff & Co.
- Thread starter Davey Boy
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smoothshooter
50 Cal.
I have heard of percussion locks being made that did not have a half-**** notch.
Why would any lock maker fail to include one on a lock?
Seems strange to pick that particular feature as a place to cut costs on a gun.
smoothshooter
50 Cal.
A half-**** notch holding the face hammer about a tenth of an inch or less off the nipple would keep the cap on.
When I was a kid I hunted with two originals that were set up that way and I do not recall ever having a cap fall off.
Good for you. I’m just telling you what I know.
It was absolutely common in that time period for commercial locks to not have a half **** notch. Perhaps given the metallurgy of the day, it was seen to be as unsafe as we now see not having one is.
It is rather odd but, there are some locks made specifically for target shooting competition that do not have half **** notches. I'm not sure what this gains someone using this type of lock. Maybe it is the assurance that once the hammer is released from a full **** position, there is nothing in the way to slow it down so the speed of the lock is faster? (There is a small amount of energy lost by the tumbler when the nose of the sear hits the fly if one is present.)
smoothshooter
50 Cal.
I wonder if some of those locks started with a half-**** notch that broke off from use at some point in it’s life, and someone dressed down the rough place on the tumbler where the break occurred with stones to ensure smooth function and make it look better.
But that may not be the case with yours at all.
When you come across these rifles built for target shooting, it is almost a certainty that there will not be a half **** notch. At the target shoots, you capped as you stepped to the firing line. You did not want to have anything on that tumbler to impede the fall of the hammer. This was considered to be a very safe practice. These locks show no sign of ever having a half **** notch. One of our members who built rifles for these matches did not see the need for a half **** notch and most of his rifles will not have a half **** notch. Features that identify these rifles built for chunk gun, table matches and other variants of over-the-log matches include the heavy, long barrel, small caliber, set triggers, iron sights and locks that don't have half **** notches.
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This rifle seems to have a lot of traits in common with a target rifle: absence of a half **** notch, polygonal barrel which, to the best of my interpretation of his bore photos, seems to go all the way down, main spring attached to the tumbler via a swivel giving constant pressure. One finds the tabbed lock bolt washer on whitworths also.
No comment other than the above but what kind of sites or site attachment does it have? None show, to my old eyes, and can you tell if it was intended for a polygon bullet?
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Just to add on the no half **** on the tumbler, I have a Tingle percussion rifle that was probably made in the late 1960s without a half ****. The set trigger has to be set before it will ****.
The iron sites are tall ears with a long front site . I will take some pictures and post.
When I first began to try to understand why it had seven flats in the bore, I read it was done that way for use with a seven sides bullet.
It difficult enough to draw seven flats in a circle. 360/7 is a weird number and someone went a long ways from easy to cut that pattern in the bore. Think of the time it took to make the machine to cut those flats.
The rate of twist if not absolutely precise the entire length of the barrel, with a bullet made to fit, would suffer interference to the bullet traveling. Distortions in the bullet and surges from pressure pulse I would expect would result.
I am not a ballistics engineer so I do not comprehend the design virtues.
Obviously the Whitworth design works as deadly accuracy repeatedly occurs at over 1000 yards.
When I first began to try to understand why it had seven flats in the bore, I read it was done that way for use with a seven sides bullet.
It difficult enough to draw seven flats in a circle. 360/7 is a weird number and someone went a long ways from easy to cut that pattern in the bore. Think of the time it took to make the machine to cut those flats.
The rate of twist if not absolutely precise the entire length of the barrel, with a bullet made to fit, would suffer interference to the bullet traveling. Distortions in the bullet and surges from pressure pulse I would expect would result.
I am not a ballistics engineer so I do not comprehend the design virtues.
Obviously the Whitworth design works as deadly accuracy repeatedly occurs at over 1000 yards.
I wonder if the heptagon bullet prevents expanding gases from causing blow by as the bullet leaves the barrel.
In tests on boat tail and flat based projectiles, blow by was detrimental to the projectile in several respects.
Perhaps the heptagon shape hit the sweet spot for launching by great limiting of blowby, distortion, and hot gas gouging of of the projectile. In other words; gas seal for maximum energy transfer, minimum distortion from acceleration and temperatue, effective rotational forces for linear flight.
In tests on boat tail and flat based projectiles, blow by was detrimental to the projectile in several respects.
Perhaps the heptagon shape hit the sweet spot for launching by great limiting of blowby, distortion, and hot gas gouging of of the projectile. In other words; gas seal for maximum energy transfer, minimum distortion from acceleration and temperatue, effective rotational forces for linear flight.
I took some pictures of the sites including measurements
here are the pictures, quality of photos should allow you to zoom in
Front and rear sites
Last edited:
Pictures of the heptagon (7 flats) bore
RAMROD
I installed the JAG from track of the Wolf on the ramrod. Then bottomed out the JAG in empty barrel. Taped location of ramrod at end of barrel when it was bottomed out. The ramrod was cut to length I wanted, center drilled, tap sized drilled (#21), and I tapped a 10-32 at the cut end so I can put a finial on the end when I get a round tuit. I knurled near the end for effect, then knurled at the location of the tape.
I installed the JAG from track of the Wolf on the ramrod. Then bottomed out the JAG in empty barrel. Taped location of ramrod at end of barrel when it was bottomed out. The ramrod was cut to length I wanted, center drilled, tap sized drilled (#21), and I tapped a 10-32 at the cut end so I can put a finial on the end when I get a round tuit. I knurled near the end for effect, then knurled at the location of the tape.
RAMROD continued
tap the end for finial
Knurl end near finial location, move to tape location and knurl there too
Both knurls shown, ramrod would be bottomed out in barrel
Jag end of ramrod shown. The end of the Jag is cupped and I will use to seat the ball
tap the end for finial
Knurl end near finial location, move to tape location and knurl there too
Both knurls shown, ramrod would be bottomed out in barrel
Jag end of ramrod shown. The end of the Jag is cupped and I will use to seat the ball
Celticstoneman
40 Cal
Fascinating thread! Thank you for your time in posting and sharing. I was lucky in that the dust had all settled when I read it beginning to end. It is a teal learning experience. All of our resident experts were able to contribute also.Great place to be!
John
John
Been hanging up long enough, it's time to load and fire
Gtrubicon
50 Cal.
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I just read this whole thread and really enjoyed it! I would love to see the results of it being shot. I have been looking for an original rifle that I can shoot. Thank you for showing your journey and skill in this thread.
Thank you!
I would highly recommend you look into a kit that you can put together yourself. Then it will be an original of your making.
Dave
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