WHY SHOOT REPRO GUNS

[enfield]

Dear friends of the black stuff

Each to his own !

I can only talk from my own expirences with old target pistols , which were made after ca 1840 . ( OK , some flinters from the early 1800 , too )

The ones , which I personally own and also those , which I could handle from friend's collections , all were made and still are in very sound condition . Therefore I hadn't and havn't any scuples to fire/shoot them , but with reduced loads and only on target . AND , I really shoot a lot !

These "tools" were made for use , therefore I think , they still can and may be used .

Unfortunately , the next generation seems to have not the same love for our antiques , and before they will destroy them because of being " bad stuff " , sooner or later : Me , personnaly , will shoot mine until the end .

What about heritage ? I think , the pieces , which will survive ,( and , btw , there will be LOTS of them ) , seemingly having been built for eternity , have really earned for being handed down , they and also all others gave and might give on MUCH fun to us , today !

So - take good care for You and stay saint !

 

[TFoley]

My comment was for the flintlock and percussion period any thing after that I do not dispute which happened at the same time has the WW1 and WW2 .The early 1900 saw the militia disbanded mainly because of the Russian revolution and instead of the militia the Territorial Army was formed so all military weapons were kept in an arsenal and not in the undividable home. Has for only the gentry having guns is far from truth there were more of the working class people owning both shotguns and rifles for sporting purpose which was from the percussion era through to the breech loading period .In fact I still have a family heirloom of my grandfather sxs 12 bore breech loading live pigeon gun which he shot many matches with before it was banned in 1924 Feltwad

I hasten to add that it was live pigeon shooting that was banned as inhumane, not any kind of shotgun. As I write this, the exact number of shotgun certificates this country, and by that I mean the entire United Kingdom of England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales, approaches 1.5 million. That's a bit less than one in every 65 people. There are also 535,000 legally licensed 'firearms' (basically any other type of gun that's not a shotgun).

One certificate covers any number you can afford - one friend of mine collects the products of Scott and later Webley and Scott and Greener, and has around 200 of them, plus fifty or sixty pin-fire and muzzle-loading.

Considering that the population of the UK is about 65 million, that's not a bad figure, comparing very favourably with most other gun-owning countries. My own small county alone, rural and therefore sparsely populated with only two cities, has about 19000 Sec. 2 certs on issue.

 

[Feltwad]

I hasten to add that it was live pigeon shooting that was banned as inhumane, not any kind of shotgun. As I write this, the exact number of shotgun certificates this country, and by that I mean the entire United Kingdom of England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales, approaches 1.5 million. That's a bit less than one in every 65 people. There are also 535,000 legally licensed 'firearms' (basically any other type of gun that's not a shotgun).

One certificate covers any number you can afford - one friend of mine collects the products of Scott and later Webley and Scott and Greener, and has around 200 of them, plus fifty or sixty pin-fire and muzzle-loading.

Considering that the population of the UK is about 65 million, that's not a bad figure, comparing very favourably with most other gun-owning countries. My own small county alone, rural and therefore sparsely populated with only two cities, has about 19000 Sec. 2 certs on issue.

Ys it was live pigeon shooting from Traps that was banned that is what I meant sorry for the bad grammar
Feltwad

 

[Rudyard]

What of the collected notes on Provincial makers Felt Wad ? Will they be published like Arthur Credland did for Yorkshire gun makers ? ( But wouldn't include me, I suppose because i'me not dead yet !) Good on you for making that study . Sorry to hear your grammars been naughty..
Regards Rudyard

 

[Feltwad]

What of the collected notes on Provincial makers Felt Wad ? Will they be published like Arthur Credland did for Yorkshire gun makers ? ( But wouldn't include me, I suppose because i'me not dead yet !) Good on you for making that study . Sorry to hear your grammars been naughty..
Regards Rudyard

Yes I should have published and have been told that many times I did inquire several years ago to publish but the printers quoted me a four figure sum so I walked away would not like to imagine what they would ask for today. I have two friends who have just done the same for Cumberland and Westmorland I did help them with some info and photos it cost them a packet but the book is ok see image
Feltwad

 

[LawrenceA]

Yes I should have published and have been told that many times I did inquire several years ago to publish but the printers quoted me a four figure sum so I walked away would not like to imagine what they would ask for today. I have two friends who have just done the same for Cumberland and Westmorland I did help them with some info and photos it cost them a packet but the book is ok see image
Feltwad

What about an Ebook?

 

[Rudyard]

If it was about Yorkshire gun makers would it be an ' E By Gum book ?'.

No Lawrence does have a good point but its outside my understanding though I know there are such books .Be a shame to loose all your studies . Ian Ford & De Witt co authored a book on flasks & accessories but the publisher cribbed at the quality of the photos which where largely pre digital . But the examples in most cases where no longer available to re do them . Their work would eclipse Riling's work .. Ian's gone & De Witt isn't well so all that may be lost . Perhaps Lawrence has some clues on doing such E books ? . What price the published work and how big is yours ? . Dover do inexpensive reprints & presumably printing such as yours . I believe they reprinted Lord Eggerton of Tatton circa 1895 work on Indian arms so they do cover relativley obscure titles .
Cheers Rudyard

 

[LawrenceA]

No Lawrence does have a good point but its outside my understanding though I know there are such books .Be a shame to loose all your studies . Ian Ford & De Witt co authored a book on flasks & accessories but the publisher cribbed at the quality of the photos which where largely pre digital . But the examples in most cases where no longer available to re do them . Their work would eclipse Riling's work .. Ian's gone & De Witt isn't well so all that may be lost . Perhaps Lawrence has some clues on doing such E books ? . What price the published work and how big is yours ? . Dover do inexpensive reprints & presumably printing such as yours . I believe they reprinted Lord Eggerton of Tatton circa 1895 work on Indian arms so they do cover relativley obscure titles .
Cheers Rudyard

Wish I did.
I suppose given enough time you could use something like "Publisher" to do it. Sorry no help.

 

[B P Maniac Shooter]

I wouldn't take a custom or a historic gun to shoot at the places I often shoot. My factory guns are occasionally caught in rain, bottom of wet canoes, snow, mud & other places most folks wouldn't use their nicer guns.

 

[vintovka]

I used to shoot my originals on a regular basis. The most valuable being a Wm Mason 1861 musket, a 1858 Rem NMA, a .36 Starr navy and a custom made, ans engraved gold/ inlaid 11 bore double by N Whitmore , with platinum blow plugs. The later built custom guns for US Grants and other notables of the day. One day There was an accident on our small club range where an original English Wm Moore blew out a section of barrel injuring shooter. After examining the metal in the failed piece ( and being trained in engineering and metallurgy) It is my opinion that all old firearms have/had a useful life. Its not just Damascus, deterioration or workmanship its things like technology, steel quality and susceptibility to work hardening and long term stress that really tips scales against the old ones. Each of my oldies is about irreplaceable ( like my eyes, fingers and other essential body parts) Especially true of the Starr and whitmore. Each will be sold and funds used to fund numerous repops i can use without thinking my next shot might be my last,

 

[Musketeer]

I wanted a Bess for many years, so when the Pedersoli replicas went on sale at Cabela's a few years ago for under $1000, I picked one up. Originals I found online were several times that price for something in (at least ostensibly) shootable condition. There is also always the chance with such old guns of issues lurking beneath the surface that may not be disclosed or perhaps even known about by the seller, and consequently problems that I may not have the knowledge or means to address. Given the cost, the known safety of the modern gun, and the availability of parts, should they ever be needed (and the fact that they are not irreplaceable historic relics), I decided the replica was the way to go. My modern repro may be only an approximation of an original, but it captures the spirit of the thing well enough for my taste. I'm not at all opposed to shooting originals, but I'll leave that to those who have the experience to know what to look for and the skill and tools to address any issues that may arise with such guns.

 

[Stantheman86]

I own 2 original 1861 Springfields in shootable condition.

However, I'm not trying to bang 1000s of rounds through originals.

Hence the availability of nice reproduction weapons.

Anyone who can afford to shoot an original Sharps would be pretty wealthy.

 

[Stantheman86]

I used to shoot my originals on a regular basis. The most valuable being a Wm Mason 1861 musket, a 1858 Rem NMA, a .36 Starr navy and a custom made, ans engraved gold/ inlaid 11 bore double by N Whitmore , with platinum blow plugs. The later built custom guns for US Grants and other notables of the day. One day There was an accident on our small club range where an original English Wm Moore blew out a section of barrel injuring shooter. After examining the metal in the failed piece ( and being trained in engineering and metallurgy) It is my opinion that all old firearms have/had a useful life. Its not just Damascus, deterioration or workmanship its things like technology, steel quality and susceptibility to work hardening and long term stress that really tips scales against the old ones. Each of my oldies is about irreplaceable ( like my eyes, fingers and other essential body parts) Especially true of the Starr and whitmore. Each will be sold and funds used to fund numerous repops i can use without thinking my next shot might be my last,

Weapons of the Muzzleloading era were largely made with high quality Iron.

These don't get stronger over 150-200+ years and in some cases , use in one or more major conflicts.

 

[Rudyard]

There are' William Moores ' in plethora in the US most all ' got up' rubbish made for the US market by using that 'Wm Moore' name these' Wm Moore' knock offs have typically long heavy barrels with a lot of drop as if meant to shoot bolt upright like a rifle man . No English shooter would consider them . A genuine Wm' Or Charles s Moore stands out as the 'Best 'gun it is . I once in Ohio handled a undoubted J .D. Dougall ' Lock fast 'double shot gun evidently made for the US taste heavy with exsessive drop. As for the same old condemnation of what many call' Damascus ' but useually it just' twist ' similar but Not the same both came in different grades . No Real Wm or Charles Moore would have any but the best be it ' Damascus' proper or twist . I have a Charles double 14 bore made to their patent but later altered to copper cap by that firm . Pretty dog eared but the quality shines through .
Rudyard

 

[toot]

Dear friends of the black stuff

Each to his own !

I can only talk from my own expirences with old target pistols , which were made after ca 1840 . ( OK , some flinters from the early 1800 , too )

The ones , which I personally own and also those , which I could handle from friend's collections , all were made and still are in very sound condition . Therefore I hadn't and havn't any scuples to fire/shoot them , but with reduced loads and only on target . AND , I really shoot a lot !

These "tools" were made for use , therefore I think , they still can and may be used .

Unfortunately , the next generation seems to have not the same love for our antiques , and before they will destroy them because of being " bad stuff " , sooner or later : Me , personnaly , will shoot mine until the end .

What about heritage ? I think , the pieces , which will survive ,( and , btw , there will be LOTS of them ) , seemingly having been built for eternity , have really earned for being handed down , they and also all others gave and might give on MUCH fun to us , today !

So - take good care for You and stay saint !

View attachment 49988

a nice display!

 

[Art Caputo]

If I were lucky enough to find the vintage firearm that was desirable to me in shootable condition, I would very likely use it. This has certainly been the case with several vintage, but more recent unmentionables, as well as other vintage items(motorcycles, cars, etc) I own. From what I’ve seen, those muzzleloaders that would have appeal for me are either in museums or private collections. Those that are occasionally accessible to me here in the US are so worn out, that to make them usable would defeat the purpose of being an original. Given that, I am very content shooting the reproductions that I own, and feel no less satisfaction enjoying the sport

 

[vintovka]

Other issues like insurance and liability are also making public and private ranges nervous about attendees using original arms on premises. Have seen some restrictions but none enforced yet. I think gun haters would have a field day with an accident at the few remaining public ranges. It is interesting that most US made modern carteidge arms undergo (or are required to perform) any govt regulated proofing at all.

 

[FlinterNick]

Could you shoot an original Brown Bess, and I’ve seen it done before however there is not a wide selection of ready to shoot Brown Bess originals nor for that matter a wide selection of pattern specific Brown Bess’s. Shame on anyone who shoots a top quality condition long land Brown Bess, that gun should be saved, protected, studied etc.

Charlevilles are probably a much safe bet for shooting originals, many of these muskets were sold off to Africa and the Ottoman Empire and Russian Empire. Charlevilles were also generally made with heavier .68 caliber barrels after 1816.

Civil War Muskets can. Be shot, there’s more of those around.

However I would say that shooting originals isn’t a great option for many reasons which have already been beaten to death in this forum.

 

[oldwood]

Dunks.....The original muzzleloaders left over from the beginnings of our "American Historical Freedom" story , by 1970 , were so depleted in numbers , all left were in very poor condition. Much more economically expedient to buy and shoot a Repro gun than spend thousands restoring some basket case and the piece had to be cautiously used 'cause it's an irreplaceable antique. The reason I started my own personal hobby of building m/l guns was the desire to own and get the feel of using them for hunting and sport shooting. . I wanted a taste of the hunt and feel of the muzzleloading sport my forefathers experienced on the frontier , even though it's not ever possible to be at war or have to provide for a starving family in need of game to eat. I had been tasked to kit build four Navy Arms Brown Bess muskets for demonstrations at Fort Ligonier, a French and Indian War historical site in Western Pa. . Building those Besses lit the fire to own one myself. Sold some stuff I had , and built one for me to shoot in competition , and to hunt with. Still remember the first squirrel collected w/that musket. I administered the full fury of the Besses' 11ga. bore. the wounded squirrel was given the death blow w/ the steel ram rod just before his majesty was able to enter safety of his oak tree hole. Then embarrassment took hold of me and I quickly looked around to see if any witness was present to testify the way my harvest was secured. Whatever..........I'm eternally thankful for the opportunity to experience most all the many types of black powder mental illness. Good fortune to all!....................oldwood

 

[FlinterNick]

Dunks.....The original muzzleloaders left over from the beginnings of our "American Historical Freedom" story , by 1970 , were so depleted in numbers , all left were in very poor condition. Much more economically expedient to buy and shoot a Repro gun than spend thousands restoring some basket case and the piece had to be cautiously used 'cause it's an irreplaceable antique. The reason I started my own personal hobby of building m/l guns was the desire to own and get the feel of using them for hunting and sport shooting. . I wanted a taste of the hunt and feel of the muzzleloading sport my forefathers experienced on the frontier , even though it's not ever possible to be at war or have to provide for a starving family in need of game to eat. I had been tasked to kit build four Navy Arms Brown Bess muskets for demonstrations at Fort Ligonier, a French and Indian War historical site in Western Pa. . Building those Besses lit the fire to own one myself. Sold some stuff I had , and built one for me to shoot in competition , and to hunt with. Still remember the first squirrel collected w/that musket. I administered the full fury of the Besses' 11ga. bore. the wounded squirrel was given the death blow w/ the steel ram rod just before his majesty was able to enter safety of his oak tree hole. Then embarrassment took hold of me and I quickly looked around to see if any witness was present to testify the way my harvest was secured. Whatever..........I'm eternally thankful for the opportunity to experience most all the many types of black powder mental illness. Good fortune to all!....................oldwood

I agree on building your own Brown Bess, its a very special thing and takes incredible research.