WHY SHOOT REPRO GUNS

[Loyalist Dave]

Well for my part, I really can't afford an original flintlock muzzle loading firearm, that's functional, and because of the likelihood of causing damage to one, I would not wish to do so. So I use similar styled, reproductions of flintlocks, and caplocks.

Just an idle thought. Why are so many folk on these forums shooting new repro guns? You lot "Americans" have in the past fought just about every other nation on your home ground.

Actually..., the only nations that fought on American "home ground" was the United Kingdom in The War of 1812 (which was the only time the contiguous United States was ever invaded), and the Japanese, when they took some of the Aleutian Islands, and Guam. The Mexican Army fought United States troops within the borders of the Republic of Texas, and the Spanish in the Spanish American War fought U.S. forces on their soil.

LD

 

[Cruzatte]

The UK has ware houses full of 18th and 19th century of old guns well I have not yet found one , most guns of that period were built for export to the colonies such has India, Africa , Nepal and others with production largely increased in war time .If there should be ware houses full of this period of guns then America should be well up on the list because during the civil war both London and Birmingham gun trade supplied it with 1,078,205 arms mostly Enfield's so where did that lot go
Feltwad

Scrap metal drives during WWII used many of them up. I was speaking to an older gentleman nearly 40 years ago about the disappearance of original muzzle loading rifles and shot guns. He told me stories of older guns and rifles being dismembered, the barrels being used as pry bars. He further stated that during the depression, only the poorest of families still clung to their grandfather's old muzzle loaders.

 

[Relic shooter]

You may call me a "barbar" , but for over 30 years now , I'm shooting but original , vintage pistols .

I started BP shooting with my first pistol , a Pedersoli " Le Page" , which was , and still is a very nice and precise pistol .
Then , I could shoot my first "original" , a Belgian "mid quality" pistol - well , even this "mid quality" was FAR over that of my Le Page ...
To make a long story short - I started collecting and shooting but these vintage treasures , always looking for that "ideal" pistol for me . I payed my dues and have learned much over the years , especially when it comes to bores -

What I've learned most over these years is : a barrel can't be "shot out" but it ca be ruined with (wrong) cleaning . All of my pistols still load and shoot the same easy and precise as then , when I bought it ! THEY LAST !!!

The reasons , why I faded to originals were :

-I could and still can buy good pieces still less in price than a modern made top quality pistol ( here in Germany )
-they handle MUCH finer than any repro ( except the Hege Siber Swiss match pistol , or the works of art of a Baumkirchner , Krebs , Dedinski etc. which I really couldn't and still can't afford )
- the fast lock time has never been surpassed by a repro by now
-if I shoud separate from one of them , I still get the same or even more as I've originally had payed for it

Believe it or not - I've fired literally thousands of shots over the last 3 decades or so , and never ever one single bit of one of these oldtimers ever broke .
OK - the one or other tumbler and sear was really worn out when I purchased it , but it NEVER was a too big a problem to restore or make a new one , remember , our ancestors didnt have the lathes and neat files , which we can obtain today ! The most important thing for a repair is PASSION and exactly knowing how to handle the tools and finding the correct material ( like the ancestors did ) .
The only parts , which really wear out , are the nipples , which I regularely replace . I first made them from silver steel , but today I use beryllium bronce exclusively , since this material doesn't burn out that fast . The original nipple stays kept safe .

Meanwhile , most of my team friends shoot with pistols out of my collection , after they have tried some replicas - I think , they also know , why .

The voices , which cry out , that there will be worn out a unreplaceable treasure of history , are completely right BUT - we live here and today and nobody knows , if following generations will appreciate our toys the same way , as we do !

But everybody should live with his own philosophy , and this is mine .

I only hope , that I can enjoy my babies for still a long time more !

 

[Relic shooter]

I've also competed & hunted with original firearms, BUT only after carefully inspecting them for condition & safety as I had the background to make these evaluation decisions..
Most of the originals I kept is service were of European manufacture, made by noted American gunsmiths with excellent metallurgy skills or manufactured in an armory that had rigid inspection standards. I might add that I feel due to my loving care, today these firearms are in much better condition than those that have been stored in a closet or hung over a fireplace for decades, wish I could say the same for my carcass.
The effects of old age & arthritis has removed my ability to hunt big game in Idaho's mountains so after our small acreage & tri-level property sells & we are moved into a much smaller single level home I will be offering the last of my favorite original Jeager hunting rifles to this forum's members.

It's impossible to replicate the experience obtained from packing & shooting a piece of living history.
One is a Danish .70 cal. Jeager , the other is the more ornate Austrian .58 cal. Jeager. Both have immaculate original bores, the precision fitted locks & triggers are tight as new. Both were updated with Tresco nipples decades ago.
BTW, if your considering evacuating a leftist run state & a move to conservative Idaho suits your fancy you might consider checking out our humble abode at 2370 S Three Mile Creek Way, Boise, ID 83709 | MLS #98786192 | Zillow
There will be better times ahead, but only if we citizens start fulfilling our civic & constitutional obligation to strictly & lawfully enforce oath of office employment contracts & fire public servants who's actions validate they have violated our trust & taken action against America.

 

[enfield]

Be sure :

ALL OF MY ORIGINALS are carefully inspected and test fired in a safe place with a string , clamped to a kind of vice , before I shoot them !
And remember : more than one that I inspected after I've bought it , turned out loaded !

ALLWAYS BE CAREFUL !

 

[LawrenceA]

I also like shooting originals where feasible, which it isn't very often.
I will never own an original long rifle or high end fowler.
What I can own is a SxS (of which I have a nice Belgium 14G).
I also use original powder flasks. Australia seems to have a supply of usable Enfield muskets and I see one of these in my future.

Fearing the wrath of Zonie, and maybe Rudyard, I will not mention my original Trapdoor or other "collector Firearms" of the unmentionable variety which get used.

Australia does not have custom guns like the US or even Traditions or Lyman (kits or otherwise). Nor is the a muzzleloader season or any enticement to purchase a ML. There are only die hard muzzleloader fans here.
To fill this market we have Pedersoli and whatever comes on the second hand market.
It is not impossible to import but long, expensive, drawn out and risky as Federal customs can just choose not to support/honor your State import permit.

I feel privileged to be able to use an original item the way it was intended and feel a better connection through their use that just does not occur with repro guns. Just to see how they were made, the quality of the work, the fit and finish is in itself a privilege.

I do own and shoot repros happily but Originals have that something extra.

 

[griffiga]

Many 42 Aston pistols are still rock solid and shootable.

I’m sure my originals would take a heavier load, but I just don’t want to stress them.

 

[LawrenceA]

I had the privilege to shoot an 1836 Purdey 70 cal rifle.
100grains of FFg and a PRB (It was Brunswick rifled).
This is when I realised that the English had hunting rifles down pat.
Not as sexy as a long rifle but so damned practical.
Compared to my GPH or Pennsylvania it was so light, came to the shoulder smoothly and pointed quickly. Did I mention it was 70 caliber?
Would love to have shot a few porkers to get a feel for her.

 

[Billy Boy]

Scrap metal drives during WWII used many of them up. I was speaking to an older gentleman nearly 40 years ago about the disappearance of original muzzle loading rifles and shot guns. He told me stories of older guns and rifles being dismembered, the barrels being used as pry bars. He further stated that during the depression, only the poorest of families still clung to their grandfather's old muzzle loaders.

Tens of thousands were converted to Trapdoors, sold thru Bannerman’s surplus thru the 40s for $4.00, scrapped for metal salvage.

 

[HiDesertHunter]

Tens of thousands were converted to Trapdoors, sold thru Bannerman’s

And the other 100's of thousands of other various muzzleloaders through the Civil War era models Bannerman bought as surplus and sold to foreign countries.

Another thing to consider with muzzleloading rifles is when a new model was introduced the previous models were dropped from production and not carried over. Also when centerfire guns started being produced MLs were dropped entirely by most of the manufacturers. Unlike centerfires where quite often a particular model would still continue to be produced even though newer models were being introduced, MLs did not experience this 'overlap' of production.

 

[Artificer]

Well I would say that for the quantity of flintlock and percussion guns that were imported into America if they had been looked after and not using the barrels for fencing post then originals would have been more
Feltwad

I hope I don't mess this up, as I don't mean to cast aspersions on anyone.

It is my theory that more flintlock and percussion guns seem to be available in the UK is because people had less access to using them AND the ones who did, took good care of them. There was and is also something to be said that shooting sports in the UK always seemed to be and seems to remain mostly in the more affluent classes who could afford to have better care taken of their guns and may not have "used them up" as commonly as done here in America. Better made guns also naturally seem to be purchased by those who will better take care of them.

At the 1996 and 1998 World Championships held at Wedgnok, the Midlands, UK I was very surprised at the large percentage of British Shooters who kept asking me and others on the U.S. Team if anyone had two types of original guns for sale.

The first one they requested was Remington Model 1858 revolvers. I was a bit surprised at that, because the British made some really fine black powder revolvers back in the day.

The second gun they most requested was original Flintlock M1816 Muskets. Now that downright floored me at first. I thought I would see original Flintlock Brown Bess Muskets shot by the British Team in the Flint Musket Match and was looking very much forward to seeing it before my first trip. Turns out none of them shot Brown Besses and a couple members of the British Team admitted they didn't shoot as accurately as the M1816 Muskets.

So I asked a few British Team Members why they didn't use original French Flintlock Muskets, that they could no doubt find easier in good shooting condition and for less money? Most of the British Shooters told me they preferred the U.S. Models. Finally, one British Shooter informed me with a twinkle in his eye, "You see, we actually would prefer a musket made in....ah.....our Old Colonies, rather then one made on the Continent, by, well......France." I busted out laughing and with equal good humour, I replied, "Ah, still don't completely trust the "Old Enemy," I see?" I think it surprised him at first, but he understood the very old reference completely and he chuckled as well.

Gus

 

[SDSmlf]

Well I would say that for the quantity of flintlock and percussion guns that were imported into America if they had been looked after and not using the barrels for fencing post then originals would have been more
Feltwad

My mother told us how any metal, antique guns included, were gathered on pretty much a weekly basis when she was growing up to support the WWII effort. Also told that guns and other items were gathered for the British Home Defense.

 

[Rudyard]

I also like shooting originals where feasible, which it isn't very often.
I will never own an original long rifle or high end fowler.
What I can own is a SxS (of which I have a nice Belgium 14G).
I also use original powder flasks. Australia seems to have a supply of usable Enfield muskets and I see one of these in my future.
View attachment 49726
Fearing the wrath of Zonie, and maybe Rudyard, I will not mention my original Trapdoor or other "collector Firearms" of the unmentionable variety which get used.

Australia does not have custom guns like the US or even Traditions or Lyman (kits or otherwise). Nor is the a muzzleloader season or any enticement to purchase a ML. There are only die hard muzzleloader fans here.
To fill this market we have Pedersoli and whatever comes on the second hand market.
It is not impossible to import but long, expensive, drawn out and risky as Federal customs can just choose not to support/honor your State import permit.

I feel privileged to be able to use an original item the way it was intended and feel a better connection through their use that just does not occur with repro guns. Just to see how they were made, the quality of the work, the fit and finish is in itself a privilege.

I do own and shoot repros happily but Originals have that something extra.

I cant speak for Zonie But I have no sensible objection to trapdoors and do have a few old BLs I think you allways make sense. Not sure about the 90 grains Purdey Two grouve. I use a two grouve pitch of 1 in 60" not all such rifles had the Brunswicks 1 in 30". What where called' Deer rifles' ran about 16 bore but did not take big charges they where accurate but meant for quite light charges despite the big bore .My own 24 bore two grouve loads its belted ball over 2&1/2 drams a rolled 4x2 cleaning rag as the greased the 4x2 wad seals the gases but flys apart at muzzle not being able to influence the ball as a felt wad can. The ball lightly patched so not hard to load . My barrel is a rust streak original but the bore is perfect so I stocked it up and have used it since 1977 when the fancy took me.
Regards Rudyard

 

[HiDesertHunter]

I hope I don't mess this up, as I don't mean to cast dispersions on anyone.

IMO no 'mess up' at all and well stated.

You actually 'beat me to the punch' as I was going to post something similar but you outlined it well.

 

[Artificer]

IMO no 'mess up' at all and well stated.

You actually 'beat me to the punch' as I was going to post something similar but you outlined it well.

Thank you,
Gus

 

[Feltwad]

My mother told us how any metal, antique guns included, were gathered on pretty much a weekly basis when she was growing up to support the WWII effort. Also told that guns and other items were gathered for the British Home Defense. View attachment 49879

My comment was for the flintlock and percussion period any thing after that I do not dispute which happened at the same time has the WW1 and WW2 .The early 1900 saw the militia disbanded mainly because of the Russian revolution and instead of the militia the Territorial Army was formed so all military weapons were kept in an arsenal and not in the undividable home
Has for only the gentry having guns is far from truth there were more of the working class people owning both shotguns and rifles for sporting purpose which was from the percussion era through to the breech loading period .In fact I still have a family heirloom of my grandfather sxs 12 bore breech loading live pigeon gun which he shot many matches with before it was banned in 1924
Feltwad

 

[Whitworth]

In our country where defending one's life or securing supper depended on a firearm little value was placed on the obsolete.

 

[DUNKS]

No Artificer Gus. I think you have hit it on the head. The landed gentry were the buyers of fine guns in the day. "still are" and we do not have the wild animals to hunt. So most shooting was very civilized and driven game. Guns were used but well serviced. Only the rich could afford fine guns. My new 1835 muzzle loader was one of a pair. Obviously made to special order and would have come cased. How much would someone have paid for such a pair at a time when we were stuffing children up chimneys to clean them at a penny a week? There was literally hundreds of gents who did nothing but shoot game in season. The common man did not have guns and if he did game shooting was banned on a Sunday "still is" Which was the only day a common man might get a few hours to himself.
These guns have survived. Most just stowed away when better options became available and they do come to light. Few people shoot black powder now. A few dedicated clubs exist but most clay grounds wont allow it! My gun, a perfectly sound percussion double shotgun with twist barrels, no rust and a lovely walnut stock carrying a 180 year old patina cost me £300 from a dealer who had had trouble selling it!. I am the OP and I just assumed that their would be literally hundreds of fine guns available in the States you being such a blood thirsty lot.

 

[jimhallam]

Hi
The problem with using ANY item is wear and tear. Obviously materials and labour costs are a factor. With an "old" artefact the passage of time may also contribute to significant changes, such as crystallisation of metals.

The supply of "originals firearms" is finite and ever-reducing. We are fortunate that most SERVICE ARMS were built to be robust, and there are large numbers of sporting arms available -- ranging from the basic to the exotic. That means that the prices (not necessarily the value) vary considerably. That can also be true with "repros" --some of the "special revolvers made by Hege, Feinwerkbau etc being many times the price of hte basic "fun gun repro".

When LAC were making P.53s their stockers were skilled men earning a pittance, hence the "American system of manufacture" which allowed reduced costs. I would be interested to know whether the machine inletting of the stock of, say, a M1861 Rifle-Musket was as close as the P.53 Enfield --- and what about the Charleville?

For the lower end of the sporting / self-protection market the materials were selected in the main for ease of manufacture -- indeed, many of the Belgian shotguns and revolvers were made by farmers in the bad weather.
BUT just because, e.g., an old Belgian 16bore or an African trade flintlock or a "pepperbox" might have been very cheap it does not make it any the less significant, historically. Museums forget that. Their displays are FULL of ornate and costly items, (Field-Marshals Uniforms etc) but thay have little representing the majority of the people. The best example of this is the WW1 Imperial Russian private soldier's uniform --- hardly any extant. Why? They were better than the clothes that the peasantry wore, so the uniform was taken home and worn until it disintegrated.


Back to the topic, with a REAL instance of what could happen ... ... ...

We all know that most flint pistols need a heavy charge and a tight patch/ball combination to shoot well. The late John Marsh (he was MLAIC Flint Pistol Champion).used too say "All you have going for you is velocity."
Is is doubtful if dueing their original working liffe that a flint dueller had more than a handful of shots through it in a year. The MLAIC course allows one fouling shot (off the target) and then 13 in 30 minutes, best 10 to count. A serious top class competitor would probably shoot 100+ in a year.
I recall a disaster happenning to John M during one competition. The barrel of his original flinter went down the range together with the front half of the fore-end. The barrel had stripped the breech threads and the fore-end wedge caused the fracture of the front wood. He was NOT a happy man!

The continued use of valuable (historically as well as financially) firearms will destroy part of our heritage.
The "experience" of firing an historical firearm is just as valid with a good reproduction. I rarely shoot any of my originals (partly because of the pain in the ...... cleaning them) but mainly because I want to ensure that they can be passed on to other collectors in good condition.

As a Cockney might have said ... "Yer tikes yer money an' yer makes yer choice, squire". ;-)

 

[Feltwad]

No Artificer Gus. I think you have hit it on the head. The landed gentry were the buyers of fine guns in the day. "still are" and we do not have the wild animals to hunt. So most shooting was very civilized and driven game. Guns were used but well serviced. Only the rich could afford fine guns. My new 1835 muzzle loader was one of a pair. Obviously made to special order and would have come cased. How much would someone have paid for such a pair at a time when we were stuffing children up chimneys to clean them at a penny a week? There was literally hundreds of gents who did nothing but shoot game in season. The common man did not have guns and if he did game shooting was banned on a Sunday "still is" Which was the only day a common man might get a few hours to himself.
These guns have survived. Most just stowed away when better options became available and they do come to light. Few people shoot black powder now. A few dedicated clubs exist but most clay grounds wont allow it! My gun, a perfectly sound percussion double shotgun with twist barrels, no rust and a lovely walnut stock carrying a 180 year old patina cost me £300 from a dealer who had had trouble selling it!. I am the OP and I just assumed that their would be literally hundreds of fine guns available in the States you being such a blood thirsty lot.

Your reply on the gentry I am afraid is not correct yes the few that did shoot had guns made by the top gunmakers and only used maybe once in a season . Game for the big house was mostly done by the head keeper, game shooting by the squires increased in the 1900,s when the Royalty became more interested. From the early 1980,s I did 20 plus years research in to the gun makers and sporting estates from the Scottish border to York and that research produced over 300 gunmakers and game records of large and small estates back too 1750 this gathered information i logged into my own private directory.
Feltwad