WHY SHOOT REPRO GUNS

[Feltwad]

I agree on building your own Brown Bess, its a very special thing and takes incredible research.

If you want too shoot a Brown Bess which you have built yourself then go ahead but make the finish job look like a Brown Bess and not a bit of this and a bit of that which is common with a lot of builds you see in these forums .
Feltwad

 

[Rudyard]

Felt Wad ,Old bean, You are perhaps being a little unkind to Brer Oldwood or FlinterNick.Ive not seen their work but he comes across like a capable gentleman .Unlike that grumpy old blow hard Rudyard fellow who went to fight at Waterloo with a Bess that might have been at the first one then flicked it off to Mick Long (Major UK dealer at the time ).
Cheers Rudyard

 

[FlinterNick]

If you want too shoot a Brown Bess which you have built yourself then go ahead but make the finish job look like a Brown Bess and not a bit of this and a bit of that which is common with a lot of builds you see in these forums .
Feltwad

Not sure what you’re meaning is. I have 2 Brown Bess musket reproductions, and I’m building one currently.

 

[FlinterNick]

Felt Wad ,Old bean, You are perhaps being a little unkind to Brer Oldwood or FlinterNick.Ive not seen their work but he comes across like a capable gentleman .Unlike that grumpy old blow hard Rudyard fellow who went to fight at Waterloo with a Bess that might have been at the first one then flicked it off to Mick Long (Major UK dealer at the time ).
Cheers Rudyard

Thanks Rubyard. I’m working on a TOW Brown Bess, waiting on the stock. This kit should be on the easier side. I have a 1756 kit from the Rifle Shoppe that was messed up bad by the gunsmith at Militiahouse, not a single screw or pin was straight if you get my meaning. Since then I’ve invested in my own workshop and will never send my kit to anyone ever again. The Rifle Shoppe has the parts and is welding up things and sending new brass parts that can’t be fixed.

 

[SOLANCO]

I am fortunate to have two vintage European best guns which I still hunt with. A 20 W C Scott which is so light and dainty that you can walk all day and feel more the weight of the shells than the gun. I use it now for doves. More often I stare in awe at the figure in the wood.
A 16 Sauer hammer double which is my go to grouse gun. It is built in the English fashion, with a straight grip, but the German did insist on sling swivels, which I do not use, as the gun is barely 6.5 pounds.
If an older best gun has not been mistreated, which includes use with heavy loads, I do not believe the tubes "wear out". True, there can be a hidden flaw in either Damascus or fluid steel tubes. Doubtless there are hidden flaws in my genes which may be the death of me, and more likely will.
That many British best guns were made and used for driven shoots is testimony to their durability and quality.
To my knowledge no one built best guns for waterfowl.

 

[TFoley]

Other issues like insurance and liability are also making public and private ranges nervous about attendees using original arms on premises. Have seen some restrictions but none enforced yet. I think gun haters would have a field day with an accident at the few remaining public ranges. It is interesting that most US made modern carteidge arms undergo (or are required to perform) any govt regulated proofing at all.

You mean 'do NOT undergo (or are required to perform) any govt regulated proofing at all'.

 

[TFoley]

It's funny that you should mention how strong older guns actually turn out to be. I paid a visit many years ago to a well-known London gunmaker with a friend, much richer that I was and still am. He was collecting his pair of 12g SxS that had been made by the company that we were visiting, and, as such, were greeted not just like valued customers, but like old friends, which was, in his case, true.

His guns were in the visiting gun room, laid out assembled for his inspection, and he and the director were taking great delight in reminiscing the history of these beautiful works of mechanical art, made in 1902 for his great-grandfather to shoot on the estate that was then theirs. As a pair of guns, they had an astounding history, all of which was there to be read in their documentation. They looked utterly like new,. and opened and closed just as they had done that fine day back in 1902 when they had been put up for the first time as finished guns to the shoulder of their new owner. They had not gone 'off the face' over the last 45,000 shots, was noted in the fitter's repair notes.

A running total of shots fired since 1902, according to the gamekeeper's diary, revealed that they had each fired well over a million and a half shots each, with successive owners in the same family.

I asked when they might need another refurbishment, in view of their almost constant use. 'Not for at least another twenty-five or thirty years or so, unless something decides to break' - said with a laugh - 'they never do, you know, that's why people buy them and depend on them in the first place. HRH The Prince of Wales once shot these guns' he noted, looking through the diary. 'That is maybe the reason he came to us for his next pair.'

Along the barrels, in gold, were the words 'Fine London Twist'.

 

[Rudyard]

I double like these last above accounts since it illustrates what 'Best' means .Priced accordingly no doubt , I allways say Purdey get more for a butt plate than I got for my guns . Only few if any fit butt plates nowadays . I send mine out with my '300 year guarantee' viz Should they break or fail bring them back in 300 years & ile fix them !, I also warranted them 'not to burst more than once ' .
Its interesting they had twist barrels perhaps made new as Pin fires or even percussion ? I have a Pin fire made new by Josh Lang pre 1853 Cockspur St Address serial in guard 295 early enough to be flint ( I Know my db Percussion number 2859 was made in 1864 )but no 295 definatltly converted from percussion as a 14 bore. Not beyond the realms of possibility such a gun could be put to central fire from Pin fire once they became more fashionable . I like pin fires coming from a primerally ML shooter angle, I could only see the advantages rather then the limitations . If invited as 'Guest gun' I allways used my pin fires . Didn't Have any CF's . Birds didn't know & I held my end up ..
Re ' Best' Pin fire or any BL for waterfowl Well I had a 8 bore PF By E M Rielley certainly of good equality w/ Damascus Brl & had a 6 bore muzzle loader by Powel of Portsmouth , Very nice gun in its day . But the conditions are more hard on guns on water fowling .Felt Wad knows that area far more than ile ever know .
Regards Rudyard

P.S. I was never sure the big ML was a 6 or a 9 bore but it took a complete modern 12 bore cartridge case rim & all easily so think must been a 6 I used to load the empty cases with shot for long ranged ' Johns Patent shell' thinking . R

 

[TFoley]

This pair of guns I was writing about were made by the stub method as a matter of preference. I recall noting that at the time, and the gentleman of the company noted that for the money involved they would make a gun with any style of barrelling. I guess that even back in 1902, when this style of barrel-making was passé, the offer of the equivalent of $120,000 by today's money had an opinion all of its own.

 

[Rudyard]

Roger that .The customer is allways right .probably used old tubes up . If I had old tubes I would use them in preference .
Reminds me of a Double flint 10 bore I made using a detached pair of LC Smith BL Brls, one was twist the other Damascus .It would seem they joined them in the white and not until the where browned did the difference appear . So what to do ?? . Simply reduce or increase the sale price to some buyer who didn't mind . They where sold in Ohio near Greenville No idea where they are now but you couldn't mistake them & there not signed Rudyard .
Rudyard

 

[Griz44Mag]

A running total of shots fired since 1902, according to the gamekeeper's diary, revealed that they had each fired well over a million and a half shots each, with successive owners in the same family.

12,711 rounds per year - each?
Over 1,000 rounds a month? For 118 years -
You aren't from Texas are you?

 

[TFoley]

12,711 rounds per year - each? Over 1,000 rounds a month? For 118 years - You aren't from Texas are you?

First of all, let me say that I am not from Texas. Nor were these guns mine. These guns were part of an old family estate of some 30,000 acres in England and Scotland, where members of the British and European royal and aristocratic families came to shoot game - grouse and pheasants - pre-WW1. In those days, a good day would net maybe 500 and 1000 birds - shot at by up to fifty people, each with a pair of SxS, and each of them probably shooting 500 shots.

Since those heady days came to an abrupt halt in 1914, not starting again until 1918, there will have been a time when they were not shot. The inter-war years, however, more than made up for that, as anybody who has read any of the Lord Peter Whimsey detective stories would advise you. The 39 - 45 break behind us, it all took off again, and is still, happily, with us, although this year will see some odd demographics in bird numbers by virtue of the arrival of the Chinese Plague. Remember, too, that in those days game shooting was dominated by men, and most men were away between August 1914 and November 1919-1921, and again between September 1939 and often well into the late '40s on occupation duties.

Figure it out for yourself - start shooting at 9 o/c, and shoot four shots every two minutes for three hours - then lunch break for an hour, and commence shooting again until 4 o/c.

That's, uh, 720 shots per day, for 122 days.

Hmmmmmmmmmm. 87840 cartridges.

Let's be charitable, and give the gun a few days off - let's say divide by six. That's still 14640 cartridges per year.

Oh, hold on, that's only ONE shooting season....and I haven't counted waterfowl or estuary shooting, let alone clay, trap, skeet and DTL, let alone the odd 'rough shoot WWD' [walk with dog].

Gamebirds and waterfowl

Species	England and Wales*	Scotland
Pheasant	1 Oct - 1 Feb	1 Oct - 1 Feb
Grey partridge	1 Sept - 1 Feb	1 Sept - 1 Feb
Red-legged partridge	1 Sept - 1 Feb	1 Sept - 1 Feb
Red grouse	12 Aug - 10 Dec	12 Aug - 10 Dec

Let's just say that if if flies, and you can end up eating it, here in UK you can shoot it, or at it. One estate near me has a standing order for one million game shot cartridges every year, for delivery before the 'Glorious 12th'. If they didn't shoot them, then they wouldn't need them, right?

Naturally, this probably comes as something of a surprise to folks who have certain fixed ideas about the state of game shooting in UK, let alone that it exists at all.

Just let me say that my local auction house gets rid of between 500 and 1000 guns a month in its auctions.

 

[tenngun]

Wow fifty people taking five hundred shots each on a hunt.
I doubt I have got to two hundred shots in a year in the last two decades. And closer to the hundred mark then the two. Take me the best part of three years to get five hundred shots

 

[TFoley]

Wow fifty people taking five hundred shots each on a hunt. I doubt I have got to two hundred shots in a year in the last two decades. And closer to the hundred mark then the two. Take me the best part of three years to get five hundred shots

Not a 'hunt', Sir, a 'shoot'. In a hunt, you go looking. In a shoot they come to you. I recently posted details of a Youtube movie from capandball about a driven game shoot in Hungary with muzzleloaders.

Swertha look.

 

[Zonie]

First of all, let me say....

Hmmmmmmmmmm. 87840 cartridges.

Let's be charitable, and give the gun a few days off - let's say divide by six. That's still 14640 cartridges per year...

This is a muzzleloading site. The time period for the guns we discuss ends in 1866 and we do not discuss guns that use self contained cartridges here.

 

[Feltwad]

Here in the UK the sport of game shooting is totally different to that in the States . Here we have on the large estates and the syndicate shoots with a rearing and keeper programme that's put back into the shoot what has been taking off not like the States where most species of game have been shot too extinction how many shooter in these forums say they have never seen a pheasant or partridge for years . Yes here good size bags are common but without their rearing and keeper program and the few birds crossing over the boundary the single shooter on a small area of permission would never get a game bird for the pot
Feltwad.

 

[The Crisco Kid]

Actually, most species have not been shot to extinction. Those days ended decades ago when the market hunters stopped shooting game to satisfy the demands of the city dwellers for meat and fowl. Many game species here are thriving to the point of becoming a nuisance. I have to agree about the pheasants being gone in the area I was raised, the Willamette River valley in Oregon. The problem there, as it is in most areas, has been habitat loss due to overpopulation, not hunting. The grain fields that used to have drainage ditches, and the resulting brush cover, have been replaced with drain tiled fields, wine vineyards, housing developments, or shopping malls. From what I hear the number of hunters has been on the decrease.

 

[kje54]

Here in the UK the sport of game shooting is totally different to that in the States . Here we have on the large estates and the syndicate shoots with a rearing and keeper programme that's put back into the shoot what has been taking off not like the States where most species of game have been shot too extinction how many shooter in these forums say they have never seen a pheasant or partridge for years . Yes here good size bags are common but without their rearing and keeper program and the few birds crossing over the boundary the single shooter on a small area of permission would never get a game bird for the pot
Feltwad.

Other than buffalo where did you get the idea we in the US are hunting species to extinction?

 

[tenngun]

Passenger pidgins?
Ducks, geese, Turkey and white tailed deer were heavily impacted by over hunting. Eastren elk were pretty much wiped out, eastern wolf populations too

 

[kje54]

Passenger pidgins?
Ducks, geese, Turkey and white tailed deer were heavily impacted by over hunting. Eastren elk were pretty much wiped out, eastern wolf populations too

They were but many are making a comeback. The Passenger Pigeon was essentially hunted to extinction mostly due to their low DNA diversity and the fact that scientists believe they were already in a reduction cycle, something we didn't understand in the 1800s. Due to these factors the pigeons just couldn't keep up reproduction against loss. It was the demise of the Passenger Pigeon that finally brought about the first game conservation laws in 1900. As for the "Eastern Elk" there's still scientific debate as to if they were a true subspecies and there have been reports of elk sightings in Upper Michigan and Ontario. We also know based on historical records that the eastern elk population was already heavily hunted out by the native tribes before the arrival of the Europeans. In respect to the Eastern (Timber) Wolf they are making a comeback besides they were never a game animal but were considered a nuisance predator and people were protecting their livestock like the ranchers out west are doing with wolves and coyotes today.
These are not excuses for what happened just more in depth information.