The problem is money. I can't afford to buy a kit for the style of rifle I want. I thought I'd buy it one piece at a time kind of like Johnny Cash. I have never built one before. I want a NC style poor boy basically. I'm just more poor than the price they want. The biggest question is where do I start? Stock? Barrel and breech? Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks Matt.
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I want to build a 36 caliber flintlock.
- Thread starter mightyox
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I've been looking over the various builders kits from TVM and have about decided to pull the trigger on the early Lancaster in .32 cal.
I'm wondering wither or not to upgrade to a swamped barrel or stay with a straight in 7/8s inch.
I don't think I want a barrel much over 40 inches long being a short guy of 5'6" tall.
Any advice?
I'm wondering wither or not to upgrade to a swamped barrel or stay with a straight in 7/8s inch.
I don't think I want a barrel much over 40 inches long being a short guy of 5'6" tall.
Any advice?
Col. Batguano
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Well the barrel length thing shouldn't be too big of a deal. I'm 5'9" and shoot 63"-65" guns regularly. They come up to my nose or even eye level when stood up straight on their butts. In loading I find it most comfortable if I hold the muzzle right about mid sternum, which means I have to tip the barrel to pour in powder and seat the ball. Whether it's a 20 or 40 degree angle doesn't really matter. It all goes down. The longer barrel does indeed give you a longer sighting radius, and, make for a quieter gun (at the shooter's ears).
The bigger deal is balance, and shape of the butt plate. If it has a hook or something at the toe that will grab your arm pit it's easier to keep on your shoulder and shoot a muzzle heavy gun than if the butt plate is straight or even cast (the proper word is pitched) in the other direction. Your personal technique in how you shoot plays another significant factor. Do you support your (support arm) elbow against your ribs when you shoot offhand, or use your shoulder muscles to support the barrel. If the latter, you will want a balance point closer to the lock, and, really come to appreciate a lighter gun. Ultimately, you will shoot it better too. This is where swamped and tapered barrels really shine. If most of your shooting is formal slow fire, where you have pretty much all day to find your NPOA and take the shot, then a heavy straight barrel will "hang" on target better (as the balance point will be further forward).
The clothing you wear makes a difference too. When I'm wearing heavy winter clothing the tension in the material makes it easier to shoot a heavier gun than when I shoot in a t-shirt in the summer time. the best case in point for me is my target .22 free rifle. When I wear my Creedmoor Heavy Hardback shooting jacket a 14 1/2 pound rifle doesn't feel heavy. When I'm in normal street clothes it's just too darn heavy, and I need to shoot the same gun in about a 10 1/2 pound weight. The jacket not only provides me position rigidity and stiffness, but supports some of the weight.
Of course, most all of the above is for range stuff. If I am carrying a gun in the field, for field purposes I use a light gun, try to get close to my target, and look to take a rest whenever possible when it comes time to shoot.
The bigger deal is balance, and shape of the butt plate. If it has a hook or something at the toe that will grab your arm pit it's easier to keep on your shoulder and shoot a muzzle heavy gun than if the butt plate is straight or even cast (the proper word is pitched) in the other direction. Your personal technique in how you shoot plays another significant factor. Do you support your (support arm) elbow against your ribs when you shoot offhand, or use your shoulder muscles to support the barrel. If the latter, you will want a balance point closer to the lock, and, really come to appreciate a lighter gun. Ultimately, you will shoot it better too. This is where swamped and tapered barrels really shine. If most of your shooting is formal slow fire, where you have pretty much all day to find your NPOA and take the shot, then a heavy straight barrel will "hang" on target better (as the balance point will be further forward).
The clothing you wear makes a difference too. When I'm wearing heavy winter clothing the tension in the material makes it easier to shoot a heavier gun than when I shoot in a t-shirt in the summer time. the best case in point for me is my target .22 free rifle. When I wear my Creedmoor Heavy Hardback shooting jacket a 14 1/2 pound rifle doesn't feel heavy. When I'm in normal street clothes it's just too darn heavy, and I need to shoot the same gun in about a 10 1/2 pound weight. The jacket not only provides me position rigidity and stiffness, but supports some of the weight.
Of course, most all of the above is for range stuff. If I am carrying a gun in the field, for field purposes I use a light gun, try to get close to my target, and look to take a rest whenever possible when it comes time to shoot.
mightyox said:
This is just me personally, but I would save until I had the money to buy all the components at once. I think that gives the advantage of buying everything that matches what I want to build vs buying one piece, then later something I need isn't available to match my original plan. By the time you buy the first three major pieces you need to start a build...lock, stock, and barrel, you almost have all the cost covered anyway...especially for a poor boy.
galamb
58 Cal.
Well, to get your question back on the rails.....
There is some things that you need before the others if you want to work while you are acquiring.
If you are going to wait until you have everything then it kinda doesn't matter what order you buy in, as long as everything you get will work together.
So, assuming you would like to work while you are collecting -
The first two things you need are the barrel and the stock.
If you plan on getting a fully or partially inlet stock then you need the barrel first.
If you leave a stock, with the barrel inlet done, laying around, the humidity/temp changes can twist it into a pretzel. Once the barrel channel is cut, you better put a barrel in it and keep it there as much as possible.
If you are looking at a fairly straight forward rifle with a straight barrel being 36 or 42" long you can go with a relatively inexpensive barrel from Green Mountain or Colerain. Both can be had for about 150 bucks (plus shipping if you aren't close enough to drive to a source).
Both are good quality barrels that will shoot straighter than you ever will.
Green Mountain's have square bottomed rifling and Colerain's have round (that's a whole other discussion).
The point may be mute because GM has stopped making barrels smaller than 45 caliber, but there may be a few left in stock if you look around.
Of course the barrels need to be breeched - the supplier can usually do that for 15 bucks plus the cost of the plug (8-15 bucks depending on the style you want).
Besides the barrel and stock your next "big" expense will be the lock. Since you want a flint, regardless of maker/style, you can count on 140/150 bucks - the major lock companies all make decent locks, but if you are looking for a southern rifle, an English style would be more correct.
A Late Ketland by Chambers (called a Classic at Track of the Wolf) is not only appropriate, it is almost universally regarded as the best flintlock currently on the market - something to consider.
With triggers, kinda whatever you prefer. A single trigger can be had "cheap" (like 15 bucks cheap) or you could spend upwards of 100 bucks on a good single set trigger with many double set triggers in the 40-60 buck range.
Any trigger style you might choose will work well with most of the flintlocks currently on the market (Chambers, L&R or Davis as an example).
Your other bits/pieces can be bought in any order, but the butt plate (if you go with one), needs to be in place before much of the final shaping of the stock is done.
So again, depending if you want to wait to start until you have "everything" or not, will dictate what you need to buy and when...
You may be tempted to go with a Lock kit or a Trigger kit to save some money.
While a trigger is doable by just about anyone with patience (after you have built maybe two or three rifles and have a decent understanding of what is going on), even after a couple of dozen rifles I wouldn't even attempt one of the lock kits.
There is too much that can go wrong unless you are skilled at fine metal work and replacement parts from an oooops here or there could drive the price above that of a pre-assembled. Plus there is a bunch of geometry that needs to be correct.
Anyhow, that's my thoughts.
I am usually, at any given time, collecting parts for two or three rifles. I currently have two "shoe boxes" with bits and pieces in for future builds.
I collect all the furniture first (butt plate, sideplate, lock, thimbles etc) and then order the barrel. When I have a delivery date for the barrel available, I cut out the stock (which I make from a "board").
Hope that helps..
There is some things that you need before the others if you want to work while you are acquiring.
If you are going to wait until you have everything then it kinda doesn't matter what order you buy in, as long as everything you get will work together.
So, assuming you would like to work while you are collecting -
The first two things you need are the barrel and the stock.
If you plan on getting a fully or partially inlet stock then you need the barrel first.
If you leave a stock, with the barrel inlet done, laying around, the humidity/temp changes can twist it into a pretzel. Once the barrel channel is cut, you better put a barrel in it and keep it there as much as possible.
If you are looking at a fairly straight forward rifle with a straight barrel being 36 or 42" long you can go with a relatively inexpensive barrel from Green Mountain or Colerain. Both can be had for about 150 bucks (plus shipping if you aren't close enough to drive to a source).
Both are good quality barrels that will shoot straighter than you ever will.
Green Mountain's have square bottomed rifling and Colerain's have round (that's a whole other discussion).
The point may be mute because GM has stopped making barrels smaller than 45 caliber, but there may be a few left in stock if you look around.
Of course the barrels need to be breeched - the supplier can usually do that for 15 bucks plus the cost of the plug (8-15 bucks depending on the style you want).
Besides the barrel and stock your next "big" expense will be the lock. Since you want a flint, regardless of maker/style, you can count on 140/150 bucks - the major lock companies all make decent locks, but if you are looking for a southern rifle, an English style would be more correct.
A Late Ketland by Chambers (called a Classic at Track of the Wolf) is not only appropriate, it is almost universally regarded as the best flintlock currently on the market - something to consider.
With triggers, kinda whatever you prefer. A single trigger can be had "cheap" (like 15 bucks cheap) or you could spend upwards of 100 bucks on a good single set trigger with many double set triggers in the 40-60 buck range.
Any trigger style you might choose will work well with most of the flintlocks currently on the market (Chambers, L&R or Davis as an example).
Your other bits/pieces can be bought in any order, but the butt plate (if you go with one), needs to be in place before much of the final shaping of the stock is done.
So again, depending if you want to wait to start until you have "everything" or not, will dictate what you need to buy and when...
You may be tempted to go with a Lock kit or a Trigger kit to save some money.
While a trigger is doable by just about anyone with patience (after you have built maybe two or three rifles and have a decent understanding of what is going on), even after a couple of dozen rifles I wouldn't even attempt one of the lock kits.
There is too much that can go wrong unless you are skilled at fine metal work and replacement parts from an oooops here or there could drive the price above that of a pre-assembled. Plus there is a bunch of geometry that needs to be correct.
Anyhow, that's my thoughts.
I am usually, at any given time, collecting parts for two or three rifles. I currently have two "shoe boxes" with bits and pieces in for future builds.
I collect all the furniture first (butt plate, sideplate, lock, thimbles etc) and then order the barrel. When I have a delivery date for the barrel available, I cut out the stock (which I make from a "board").
Hope that helps..
That's good info. I do plan on building as I go. I tought I would buy a new part or two every payday. I planed on a straight barrel instead of swamped. Are you talking about polygonal rifling like some cz's and Glocks have? I was going to make a list of parts that came in one of the kits and order them as I needed them. I figured I couldn't screw it up that way. Then I realized I have no idea what Im doing so i came here for help.
Johnny Tremain
Silversmith in training
http://www.muzzleloaderbuilderssupply.com/
You can talk to them, figure out which rifle you want to build, then buy the parts as money comes available.
You can talk to them, figure out which rifle you want to build, then buy the parts as money comes available.
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the straight barrel is exactly that - straight along its entire length. some (pretty rare) are tapered, with the breech being bigger than the muzzle. 'swamped' barrels are thick at the breech, thin out at the waist, and flare out slightly at the muzzle. check out the barrel profiles at the Track of the Wolf website.
the rifling is what imparts the spin to the projectile and keeps it on a more uniform path to the target. if you have conventional rifling, the bottom of the groove is flat, but with radius groove rifling, the lands (high spots) are flat but the grooves are rounded. the advantage (to my mind anyway) of this method is that there are no nooks and crannies for fouling to build up, and the barrel is easier to clean.
(polygonal rifling is different: the entire shape of the bore is not circular, but forms a polygon. for a good 'quick and dirty' on how this works, check out this u-tube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O84B700Li4
this is a centerfire thing - don't worry about it if you want to shoot muzzle loaders)
then there's 'progressive' rifling, where the rate of twist changes as the projectile goes down the tube. pretty rare and, although it sound pretty cool, I don't know as its advantages outweigh the extra expense. I can't remember if Charlie Burton does this, but if you're curious, you might want to shoot him an e-mail. http://fcibarrels.tripod.com/
here's the bad news: galamb is right, you need to get the barrel and the stock pretty much together, so you can keep the barrel in the channel as much as possible. if this is out of your budget, get the barrel first. Pecatonica has very nice precarves at reasonable prices - here's a link: http://www.longrifles-pr.com/
don't make mistake I almost did- be sure that your barrel channel will fit the profile of the barrel you use.
:redface: :redface: :redface: :cursing:
I would also recommend that you get a copy of Recreating the American Longrifle (another link: http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/321/1/BOOK-RAL
or a copy of Peter Alexander's book, The Gunsmith of Grenville County: http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/321/1/BOOK-GGC
both of these books are about forty bucks, which seems pretty steep, but they will save you much more than their cost in parts you don't spoil and time you don't waste on waiting for the replacement to arrive. I like Alexander's book better, but that's just one guy's opinion, and probably worth about what you just paid for it.
more bad news: the project upon which you embark is just your first, and there's no twelve step program for this addiction.
...seriously - good luck with your build, and take pictures ... we love pictures...
the rifling is what imparts the spin to the projectile and keeps it on a more uniform path to the target. if you have conventional rifling, the bottom of the groove is flat, but with radius groove rifling, the lands (high spots) are flat but the grooves are rounded. the advantage (to my mind anyway) of this method is that there are no nooks and crannies for fouling to build up, and the barrel is easier to clean.
(polygonal rifling is different: the entire shape of the bore is not circular, but forms a polygon. for a good 'quick and dirty' on how this works, check out this u-tube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O84B700Li4
this is a centerfire thing - don't worry about it if you want to shoot muzzle loaders)
then there's 'progressive' rifling, where the rate of twist changes as the projectile goes down the tube. pretty rare and, although it sound pretty cool, I don't know as its advantages outweigh the extra expense. I can't remember if Charlie Burton does this, but if you're curious, you might want to shoot him an e-mail. http://fcibarrels.tripod.com/
here's the bad news: galamb is right, you need to get the barrel and the stock pretty much together, so you can keep the barrel in the channel as much as possible. if this is out of your budget, get the barrel first. Pecatonica has very nice precarves at reasonable prices - here's a link: http://www.longrifles-pr.com/
don't make mistake I almost did- be sure that your barrel channel will fit the profile of the barrel you use.
:redface: :redface: :redface: :cursing: I would also recommend that you get a copy of Recreating the American Longrifle (another link: http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/321/1/BOOK-RAL
or a copy of Peter Alexander's book, The Gunsmith of Grenville County: http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/321/1/BOOK-GGC
both of these books are about forty bucks, which seems pretty steep, but they will save you much more than their cost in parts you don't spoil and time you don't waste on waiting for the replacement to arrive. I like Alexander's book better, but that's just one guy's opinion, and probably worth about what you just paid for it.
more bad news: the project upon which you embark is just your first, and there's no twelve step program for this addiction.
...seriously - good luck with your build, and take pictures ... we love pictures...
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Here ya go.
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/293249/tp/1/
This is my .36 build and it's shaping up to be an excellent rifle. You don't need to drop a huge amount to get a quality rifle. However, you will have to put more efforts into these kits and that's were you produce the quality. Yet, that's were the fun is in this hobby. :hatsoff:
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/293249/tp/1/
This is my .36 build and it's shaping up to be an excellent rifle. You don't need to drop a huge amount to get a quality rifle. However, you will have to put more efforts into these kits and that's were you produce the quality. Yet, that's were the fun is in this hobby. :hatsoff:
Last edited by a moderator:
Thanks to everyone for their help. I'm so anxious to get started. I'm buying my first house and moving in the first of march. I'll start the build after we settle in. I have tinkered with center fire guns all my life I have reworked a marlin lever action in 35 rem to smooth it up a little and built a 1022 ruger. This is just my first flintlock build. I know a thing or two about guns. I'm not a total newb.
This will be a totally different animal, not a part A to part B kit... Even the Traditions kits. None the less, your entering a new level of addiction! Might I suggest before you even purchase a kit, do yourself a favor and purchase a good reference like Recreating the American Longrifle. This will provide you with loads of must know knowledge. Allot of good guys who are willing to help here as well! Welcome and good luck! :hatsoff:
I'll take pics and post them up. I'm on another forum for guns but it's not dedicated to muzzleloading. One reason I want to build this gun is because I dont want to build a Legos kit ar15 or something like that. The reason for a squirrel caliber is because I deer hunt with a antique bow and Im tired of my 22s.
welcome to the madness..........it's NEVER just one rifle!!!!
but get some background reading done....all the workbooks if you can!...then buying tools.....then making shavings all over the floor.... :idunno:
and time spent in the shop..(and you'll need a 'workshop kat")...the misses gets mad, and you'll have to take her out to dinner more.....pretty soon it's flinlock shows....then more tools...then more rifles.....
welcome aboard......... :rotf: :surrender:
marc n tomtom
but get some background reading done....all the workbooks if you can!...then buying tools.....then making shavings all over the floor.... :idunno:
and time spent in the shop..(and you'll need a 'workshop kat")...the misses gets mad, and you'll have to take her out to dinner more.....pretty soon it's flinlock shows....then more tools...then more rifles.....
welcome aboard......... :rotf: :surrender:
marc n tomtom
The plus side is keeping ya out of the taverns. :grin: :nono:
:rotf: This is a very beneficial piece of advice! However, my coffee intake and substantially increased to the point of owning two coffee makers!
robert reed
40 Cal.
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Then I can't sleep so I read this forum and come up with yet another idea that I just have to try.... Right after I finish the project I'm working on. But the parts on sale and if I don't buy it now there won't be any left.... Now I need another workbench and another cup of coffee....What are these papers on the kitchen table? Sure, Honey I'll sign that for you...... :haha:
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bpd303 said:
taverns??! you can afford taverns? ... must be nice!! me, well all my money (that which I don't have to waste on worthless junk like groceries and car payments), goes towards new flintlock parts.
:rotf:
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Our one eyed cat "Sprout" is falling down on the job. I noticed a mouse a few weeks ago in the shop while working on a gun,set some traps and 15 mice later I pretty well have them thinned out. Sprout........... well he wakes me up early for a can of premium cat chow rather than chase mice anymore.
I think I'll make him a patch for his bad eye so he can look the part of the pirate he has become! :rotf:
I think I'll make him a patch for his bad eye so he can look the part of the pirate he has become! :rotf:
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