Observations at the NMLRA fall championships

[akapennypincher]

I will give the NMLRA much longer than 10 years, but probably not in the form it exists today. It will be a smaller organization, more slender and budgetarely streamlined. Some activities will be dropped, some others may be added. Normal transformation of an organization in a changing environment.
Yes, there are more recreational offerings today than 1933, but much more people probably have a budget for hobby activities than 1933 as well, so the argument is not valid.
Gun safety:
Gun safety is taken seriously enough on the range.
Yes, you could be a total newbie and could buy everything despite black powder unless you're a NMLRA member.Now, if you would be a new member you would be even able to buy black powder as well and targets and such and go shoot. In order to buy powder you need to be 21 and thus are considered an adult. An adult is expected to behave like one in a responsible way. If not, he will be held accountable. Does this scenario happen? No, not without running into someone noticing that you never handled a ML gun. As a newbie you will stand out and you'll be watched with eagle eyes by the range officer.
Safety is taken very seriously and in group events like the "woodswalk", everyone watches everybody else.

Maybe Friendship is different than PHX, as I was a volunteer at the Ben Avery Facility for over 8 years. Each year where check the Small bore Ranges Tin Roof before the NMLRA's Western/Winter Shoot. No Big hole were found.

The week follow the NMLRA's Western/Winter Shoot holes mysteriously Holes appeared. Big Holes like .45 Caliber Plus. Wonder who A/Ded a Muzzleloader?

Like I said I have serious SAFETY Problems the way the NMLRA Runs it shoots. Even on Traders Row you have people walking around with Firearms in Hand, and I have a more than a Few Strong Words with some knuckle head who pointed a muzzle in my direction. Love when they say it not loaded.

Basic Firearm Safety per Jeff Cooper.


1. All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. (For those who insist that this particular gun is unloaded, see Rule 1.)
3. Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target. This is the Golden Rule. Its violation is directly responsible for about 60 percent of inadvertent discharges.
4. Identify your target, and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything that you have not positively identified.

 

[tecum-tha]

The same is true for every modern gun show.....

 

[nit wit]

Not true,modern gun shows are required by the NRA insurance carrier to check and zip tie all firearms.
Nit Wit

 

[akapennypincher]

Not true,modern gun shows are required by the NRA insurance carrier to check and zip tie all firearms.
Nit Wit

That is how ever gun show goes in Arizona, check & zip tie all firearms, and NO LOADED FIREARMS or MAGAZINE ON YOUR PERSON.

 

[palehorse]

I've never been to a NMLRA shoot so I got to ask, are there range officers watching the line or is it a unsupervised firing line? It's hard to imagine an negligent discharge with a ML. Correct me if I'm wrong but you would have to prime or cap before charging your firearm, a great chance to blow your hand off. I've been a range officer at my club for about three years now and I can tell within a few minutes of observing someone if they know what they're doing or if I'll need to keep a close eye on them and help them out. Considering the process it takes to load a muzzleloader I would think a rookie would be easy to spot.

 

[akapennypincher]

I think the AD's that put the holes in the Small Bore Range's Tin Roof I spoke of before were from AD's that could have been caused from TRIGGERS that were way too light, but some target shooters try, and push the envelope with triggers that would not be safe in say a hunting situation.

The one thing about firearm accidents, most could be prevented if safety procedures were followed, and safety officers were paying 110% attention to what it is they are charged with Range Safety.

There are two types of accidents. Preventable, and Non Preventable. IMHO Preventable happen because safety procedure were not followed most of the time.

I recall many years ago, going out one Sunday to check out this shooting club I heard about. Went I arrived at the venue I stood around for about 1/2 looking what was going on. When I finally talked to one of the clubs officers, I ask who was the Designated Safety Person, as no one seem to be looking over the range with over 20 shooter on the line?

The officer said so and so pointing to one of the member/shooters who was in the process of shooting a target from the prone position, give his full attention to what he was doing. Trying to shoot an "X".

I smile and told the club officer I thought his club shoot was an accident looking for a time to happen. I also mentioned I thought a LAWYER would have a great case to put to a civil jury, when they presented the fact of the safety officer at the time of this accident, was also being an active participant in the monthly match shooting a target, and looking down range, & not observing the shooters on the shooting line, and loading area.

The reply I got was we all look out for safety problems, and I said thank you so much, and have a nice day. No I never went back, and still feel that Club Safety Procedures are pure BS.

 

[Larry Pletcher]

The line at Friendshp is constantly watched by range officers. A shooter loads his rifle at a loading bench, walks to the firing line with his muzzle up, higher than his head. When his weapon is pointed down range, he primes or caps his gun. After firing, he returns to the loading bench with the muzzle up, higher than his head.

It would be a long process to list all the things a range officer looks for, but a common example is to keep your powder source covered. Many shooters set their measure over the spout of their can.

I'm sure there are many ways to spot an inexperienced shooter, but you should realize that many, many of these shooters are there spring and fall for years. The range boss knows them on a first name basis, and they him. A new shooter will be spotted simply because he is a fresh face.

I hope you have a chance to come and shoot with us.
Regards,
Pletch

 

[akapennypincher]

Well as we live in the year 2011, and soon 2012, and not 1933. Safety and NO ONE getting hurt, injured, or killed during your Local Club Shoot, a day at the public range, or some National Shoot Event is a top priority.

As I do not know how it is where you all live, but in Arizona if you turn on the TV Set. You will see Tort Attorneys advertising for business, from ACCIDENT VICTIMS all day long.

When S**T happen in this modern age many times you are looking at LAW SUITS, and that is the reason many Local Shooting Clubs etc., have Incorporated, so to add a layer of protection from Tory Suit, to of the individual members, and you if you belong to a shooting club, an accident happen and the Club is no protected with Legal Documents. Individual members assets can be up for grabs. So you better have good Club Liability & Accident Insurance.

I volunteered over 8 years, at a Public Range in AZ. Run by the State, and there was so much preaching from management constantly about Safety, Liability, when you were ON DUTY Safety Officer what was expected of you as a Safety Officer, about Liability both to you and the State should a Bad Firearm Accident happen.

I honestly had no idea some when I started volunteering of the potential accidents that were prevented, and how many Gun Owners/Customers shall we say being politically correct. WERE LACKADAISICAL, Had NO Clue, or Un Educated about Firearm Safety. Those Eight year gave me a LOT OF GRAY up top. LOL.

No one need worry about safety until you have a Firearms Accident (INCIDENT) where someone is seriously injured, or dies. Than when the Tort Suit is files the Venue, and Organization have the Shoot better have good insurance, safety procedures they can point too that were in place at incident time, and hope you have the ammunition to be victorious in defending your position as defendant.

 

[tecum-tha]

Even if there were holes in the tin roof one week after the NMLRA shoot, who says this happened during the NMLRA shoot? Usually every club member can go shoot during the week on a club range.
The firing procedure pletch described makes it impossible to have an accidential discharge, unless a cook off during the ultra short walk to the firing line occurs, which is highly unlikely. Every barrel points toward the target before the ML is primed or capped. Do you really think the NMLRA using the facility would not have made efforts to reimburse the club for the damage if it occured during their shoot?
What you present here is inconclusive evidence and your "conclusions" what may have happened.
As the BOD beeing mostly from east of the MS. No one prevents the western members to apply for a directors post to get elected. The majority of the members is from the eastern US and so is the majority of the BOD.

 

[akapennypincher]

Even if there were holes in the tin roof one week after the NMLRA shoot, who says this happened during the NMLRA shoot? Usually every club member can go shoot during the week on a club range.

The funny thing is the range I am speaking of is a Non Public Range, it is used by User Groups, and Clubs ONLY. No Holes before the NMLRA Western/Winter Shoot. Holes after, could it have been Metal Eating Road Runner Birdies???? I THINK Not :hmm:

The firing procedure pletch described makes it impossible to have an accidential discharge, unless a cook off during the ultra short walk to the firing line occurs, which is highly unlikely. Every barrel points toward the target before the ML is primed or capped. Do you really think the NMLRA using the facility would not have made efforts to reimburse the club for the damage if it occured during their shoot?

Light Trigger do cause AD's with any firearm. Some NMLRA Members who are competitive shooters, have too light a trigger IMHO.

What you present here is inconclusive evidence and your "conclusions" what may have happened.

What I stated was a fact of no hole, and then holes.

As the BOD beeing mostly from east of the MS. No one prevents the western members to apply for a directors post to get elected. The majority of the members is from the eastern US and so is the majority of the BOD.

The has been time or to where there has been a NMLRA Director or Two on the BOD from West of Mississippi, but as you say most of the NMLRA Members are East Coast Folks. So why even call it a National Organization when it is not.

Like I said I seen what I think is a Major Flaw in NMLRA Safety Procedures. My point will see light should the NMLRA ever have to be a Defendant in a Civil Case were someone was hurt or killed at a NMLRA EVENT. Then the NMLRA will have to prove to a Jury that SAFETY PROCEDURES WERE IN PLACE TO PREVENT ACCIDENTS, AND THE ACCIDENT UNDER THE MICROSCOPE WAS TOTALLY NON PREVENTABLE. GOOD LUCK... :idunno:

This FLAW IN SAFERTY PROCEDURES THING was discussed in detail when I was a Field Representative with a Former Director, who also agreement with me.

But why he brought it to the BOD the majority of the other Directors saw no reason to make changes in Safety Procedures.

Hope the day never come when my argument is put to the test in a court of law. As it will be a sad day for the shooting sports.

I am a Safety Nut, working around shooters as a Safety Officer for 8 plus years. and several thousand of hours, is where I learned how stupid, short a memories, non focused, and forgetful some people can be. Many can not even follow simple verbal in instruction they heard 10 second before.

 

[flintlock50]

Sir: I have been serving as a National R.O. at Friendship for 7 or 8 years. Without having a R. O. assigned to each shooter at all times there is no way to insure against all possibilities of accidents. We do go over basic safety issues every day and then WORK our a%% es off to insure all participants safety including making sure muzzles are pointed in a safe(UP) direction at all times. I would prefer a hole in the roof to all other options.

We are a national organization,we offer membership to anyone who is interested, what they choose to do with it is entirely up to them, including running for the B.O.D.,attending Friendship, shooting at Territorials etc.

 

[akapennypincher]

We do go over basic safety issues every day and then WORK our a%% es off to insure all participants safety including making sure muzzles are pointed in a safe(UP) direction at all times.

So are you saying the NMLRA has adapted Safety Procedures similar to SASS, where each Shoot Must Attend A MANDATORY Safety Meeting each AM before the Ranges Open. Than the Safety Officer Checks each shooter before they are allowed on the line, to see they have PROOF of Attending a Mandatory Safety Meeting?

 

[selvinman]

Dixie this is a great thread I just finished reading from top to bottom. My suggestion for increasing memberships is to bring your kids and grandkids to a shoot and have them participate. My wife and I were at the fall nationals for the entire shooting period along with 4 children and 8 grandchildren with 4 of the grandchildren shooting and 2 winning medals. I urge each member to try it. It is fun and it works. P.S. I live in Vicksburg, Mississippi not next to Friendship, Indiana

 

[tecum-tha]

No, there is no mandatory safety meeting for the shooters in the morning or whatever.
The structure of the shoot with the different matches, aggregates and people coming and going from different ranges to other ranges would make that virtually impossible to check and to enforce.
Let's say I arrive at 10 am,set up camp and I want to shoot in the afternoon matches A and B, before I plan to shoot matches C,D, E and F the next day. If the mandatory safety meeting would be at 7:30am, I could not shoot on the first day because I missed the "mandatory" daily safety meeting? To me, this is pure "safety nut dreaming"...
At open shoots, there is a short safety meeting before the competition starts,where the shoot rules are summarized and safety hints are given. But at the NMLRA shoots you can only compete when you're a member and it is your responsibility as an adult to keep everyone safe and respect the existing safety rules. Before you leave any range, your rifle is checked to be unloaded by a range officer as well.
At my private range I blow down my barrel after firing my rifle, I don't try to blow down the barrel when the barrel is loaded. I still can feel and hear that I fired my rifle.
I don't do that at the NMLRA matches, because it is against their safety rules. I am ok with that,adapt and there are no problems.

 

[akapennypincher]

No, there is no mandatory safety meeting for the shooters in the morning or whatever.

tecum-tha THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR MAKING MY POINT.

The structure of the shoot with the different matches, aggregates and people coming and going from different ranges to other ranges would make that virtually impossible to check and to enforce.

Not impossible as you only need to follow the procedure SASS uses.

Let's say I arrive at 10 am,set up camp and I want to shoot in the afternoon matches A and B, before I plan to shoot matches C,D, E and F the next day. If the mandatory safety meeting would be at 7:30am, I could not shoot on the first day because I missed the "mandatory" daily safety meeting? To me, this is pure "safety nut dreaming"...

Really sad you could not shoot the First Day, as your attitude is FUN over Safety. IMHO Safety is First, Fun is Second.

At open shoots, there is a short safety meeting before the competition starts,where the shoot rules are summarized and safety hints are given. But at the NMLRA shoots you can only compete when you're a member and it is your responsibility as an adult to keep everyone safe and respect the existing safety rules. Before you leave any range, your rifle is checked to be unloaded by a range officer as well.

Being a Member don’t mean you know much about Safety, or Was Any Guarantee That The MEMBER Even Read the Safety Rules in the Program. Being a Member Means you paid a Membership Fee and nothing more.

At my private range I blow down my barrel after firing my rifle, I don't try to blow down the barrel when the barrel is loaded. I still can feel and hear that I fired my rifle.
I don't do that at the NMLRA matches, because it is against their safety rules. I am ok with that,adapt and there are no problems.

Blowing Down a Barrel is not safe, and you are breaking Basic Firearms Safety Rules. As you are pointing the Muzzle of a Firearm at something I hope you are not Planning on Destroying or Killing.

As I said the TEST of any Safety Procedure will someday be TESTED in a Court of Law, after an Accident, or Death, and the Shooting Organization, or Club Running the Event, and their Insurance Carrier will be at the mercy of some TORT ATTORNEY, who will care less about “your responsibility as an adult”.

The Tort Attorney will care about what was done, what safety procedures were in place, how the safety officer were trained, when the safety officers were last certified, and all the thing Tort Lawyers use to convince some Jury of Lay People that the defendant blew it, and do not do a good job of SAFETY! That is why someone got killer or hurt/injured bad.

Having Helped THE CHIEF RANGE SAFETY OFFICE AT A Couple of SASS Winter Ranges, as his Second in Charge. I will say SASS takes safety seriously, and their are layers of Safety Procedures in place to see no one get hurt. Heck spectator are not allow near the shooting area unless they are wearing glasses for eye protection. Reason is Lead Bullets, and Balls Splatter, and no one can predict where they will end up. Just like on the NMLRA Primitive Range where some of the Targets are Steel. :hmm:

 

[tecum-tha]

Do you really think people behave more safely because they have to attend a morning safety meeting? This opinion is absolutely delusional. Give me a break. I have spent multiple years in the military and it helps much more if someone safely masters his weapon, knows to do the correct thing when a problem arises,instead of attending 20 safety meetings. The unsure handling guys are usually spotted pretty quick by the range officers and are watched closely.

Modern firearms safety rules were written with modern multishot breachloading rifles in mind.
If I just shot my ML, I know if the barrel is empty and it is none of anyones business what I do on my private range where I practice historical shooting with a historical firearm.
As long as I don't point my barrel at someone else, loaded or unloaded there is no problem.
As long as I follow the rules of the hosting organisation, there are no problems.

Steel targets are not ideal, but they're used a lot. How many accidents did happen when a reasonable distance was kept between the shooter and the target? I don't speak about the handgun guys shooting from 3-5 yards, but about 25 yards?

 

[msuspartan]

We could debate on the what if's, what could be's till we are ALL blue in the face. This problem will end up like a similar event that happened last summer.

The pavilion at the Indiana State fair blew down. Were there some inherent problems yes, BUT I was there before that happened and we left BECAUSE the storm was coming in. ALSO the storm was very easily seen from the stage and viewers areas but most decided NOT to leave but sued anyways.
It was referred to as an act of GOD but the lawyers quickly got to the people and lawsuits entailed. No matter what safety attitudes happen there WILL be lawsuits.

Now, can we do a better job or put in better safety requirements, there are always ares to improve.

Pennypincher, ALL I have heard from you is how bad the NMLRA is, and I differ on your continuing crusade against a fine orginization that is trying to get it's membership up AND trying to find ways to do that. We can make it a great orginization instead of kicking it when it is down.

If you do not like it (which is obvious) then leave it alone and go your merry way. I want to see it flourish. Just like the U.S of America, we have our bad points, things to change and problems BUT I will always be grateful to what I have here. The NMLRA has problems but we as a TEAM can change it for the better.

Dixie, Thank you for wieghing in and I look forward to talking with you at the Connor Show in Feb.

Cheers, DonK

 

[msuspartan]

'These comments are aimed at no one in particular or everyone in general. But, as long as we separate ourselves with ideas like this, the BOD will never be successful. They could walk on water and we would complain that they can't swim.'

Pletch,
you hit the nail on the head. People want to spend more time b$%^hing then come up with solutions. I want to hear of ideas to how change current membership. Being more accessible on-line is a huge way to go. Gets kids interested. But it is a start. As members we can get the BOD to add new changes.

Cheers, DonK

 

[akapennypincher]

Do you really think people behave more safely because they have to attend a morning safety meeting? This opinion is absolutely delusional. Give me a break. I have spent multiple years in the military and it helps much more if someone safely masters his weapon, knows to do the correct thing when a problem arises,instead of attending 20 safety meetings. The unsure handling guys are usually spotted pretty quick by the range officers and are watched closely.

Modern firearms safety rules were written with modern multishot breachloading rifles in mind.
If I just shot my ML, I know if the barrel is empty and it is none of anyones business what I do on my private range where I practice historical shooting with a historical firearm.
As long as I don't point my barrel at someone else, loaded or unloaded there is no problem.
As long as I follow the rules of the hosting organisation, there are no problems.

Steel targets are not ideal, but they're used a lot. How many accidents did happen when a reasonable distance was kept between the shooter and the target? I don't speak about the handgun guys shooting from 3-5 yards, but about 25 yards?

It is apparent that constructive criticism of Safety Procedures is not appreciated, and you do not understand some people do not shoot every week of the year, and when they come to compete it could have been a long time since their last outing to the range.

I will tell you what I use to tell customer who complained about all the rules we had at the Public Range I use to Volunteer at as a Safety Officer.

Our Rules are GEARED TOWARD Our Dumbest Customers, we have it that way so everyone is safe, and no one get hurt.

In the Eight Year I was a Volunteer at as a Safety Officer rules were constantly being changed, Safety Procedure were also changed. Reason was we WANTED THE SAFEST PLACE for out Customer to Shoot. The State also want no Civil Action against them because a STATE has what some call DEEP POCKETS.

Even in the Military you have Troops that are unsafe, but in the Military you have the Brig, UCMJ, and a whole lot of thing you can do to someone who is unsafe with a firearm, and you do not have the THREAT of Civil Litigation.

Safety First, Shoot Safe, and have Fun,....HOPE I MADE MY POINT.

 

We could debate on the what if's, what could be's till we are ALL blue in the face.

And you'll notice that the complaining comes from people who are not current members. They don't care enough to participate, but they sure think they know how to run the show. :haha: