problem with a flinter

[45-70cannon]

This is serious! I have a Len Day 50 cal. flintlock that loves to do its own thing! I know flinters do that anyway. They train ya, you don't train them. But this one likes to get accurate on the fifth freakin' ball going through the bore, not the first. an no matter what i do, no matter what charge I've tried (and I've tried em all) it gets deadly on the fifth shot.
Oh and she eats patches too so you end up using .015 or thicker (don't forget your hammer)
to get the patch and ball down the bore.
This one I really love but I can only take it to the range when I'm interested inwasting powder and ball! Anybody have any ideas?


45-70

 

[LRB]

I've gone through the same basic thing in the last few weeks with a newly lined barrel. Patches were tearing, and cutting,.018 ticking. No real accuracy. Lightly scrubbed bore with OOOO steel wool. Got better accuracy, but not consistant. My last group was 5 shots 3/4" spread. Thought I had it until yesterday. Yesterday started out with first shot of the day center in the bull from a clean bore. The next five did a shotgun pattern all around the paper. Decided to wipe between shots. Put the next five with the first hole in the bull. A total of 6 shots, 1" center to center, in the bull. I don't like having to wipe between shots, but if thats what it takes, I'll adapt to it. Next week I'll check it again to be sure that 6 shot group was not a fluke like the other.

 

[F.G. Ford]

If you want absolute consistancy from your rifle, you will have to make all things the same.
That being said, wiping between shots, is part of it.
But to help resolve, your rifle from shotgunning your group. Have you checked your barrel, that it is tight in the stock, and that your sights are not walking about?
But by all means, to help stabilize your barrel from the inside, especially if it is not as smooth as a baby's bottom. You should polish it with very (very) fine steel wool, or valve grinding compound.
That involves full even strokes top to bottom of the barrel.
Good luck!
Old Ford

 

[lonehunter]

I know your pain. I have a t/c hawken that i am starting to think just wont shoot. :cursing: have tried every combo i can think of, 2f and 3f powder,.10-.20 ticking .490,.495,.500 rb nothing seems to work. The only thing left to try is changing the sights.I guess i could use it as a club :rotf: If you get it figured out let us know! I dont want to send the barrel back but it looks like i might have to. Oh, Dont feel too bad for Wick that gun he has is a TACK DRIVER. :bow: :v

 

[paulvallandigham]

Have you ACTUALLY measured the Bore and Groove diameters?

Have you measured the Rate of Twist in the barrel's rifling?

What do the spent patches tell you about your powder charge- patch- lube combinations? If your rifling is rough, and the patches are still tearing, you are not going to get any kind of accuracy until the barrel is polished by firing 200 or more shots!

Are you cleaning the barrel between shots?

Have you tried using either a vegetable Fiber wad, or corn meal to act as a fire wall between the powder and your PRB?

What powder are you using, and exactly what load(s) are you shooting?

Have you asked any other good shooters to test fire the gun for you, to eliminate YOU as the possible problem?

If you have done this, have you called Mr. Day to ask him about the problems?

Is this one of his Swivel Breech Guns, and are you have trouble with just one barrel, or both, or just trying to get the two barrels to shoot to the same POINT OF IMPACT???

These are some of the dumb questions I would ask you in person if you came to me with this " problem" with the limited information you provided. If you give us more information, we can help more. If you don't own it, you should buy Dutch Schoultz' Black Powder Rifle Accuracy System.
http://www.blackpowderrifleaccuracy.com/

Its the best $15.00 you can spend on your education, and will help you understand what you need to do( and how to do it) to obtain the best accuracy from your rifle.

Paul :thumbsup:

 

[BrownBear]

My hunting pard had similar problems. His were only resolved when he went to a slightly smaller ball in order to allow an even thicker patch. The rifle settled in on .022 patches along with a fairly tight fit.

Interesting to note that after a couple of hundred rounds the loads were getting easier to seat. He went back and tried the larger size ball and thinner patches, and now the rifle works fine with them. Overall his looks like a case of just needing to be "shot in" a bit.

 

[Dphar]

Put some 0000 steel wool in a patch and using a jag that makes for a *tight* fit and working it up and down the barrel about 50 times, replacing as needed to maintain a fairly tight fit.
Maybe a little oil on the patch.
This will also give you some idea of the uniformity of the bore. If it goes down smooth there is no problem.
If its tight and loose and/or tight at the breech you have a problem.
A tight spot in from the muzzle 2-4" is usually OK being a "choke" which was a common feature of rifles of the past.
The steel wool will remove any sharp edges or burrs that might be cutting patches.
It will not cure tight spots or grooves that are too deep.
IMO grooves over .010-.012 are needlessly deep and tend to increase blowby.
Next.
BAD CROWN. The crown may very well be eating the the patch as its seated in the barrel.
This is probably more common than burred edges on the lands.
Some 400 grit paper on a tapered dowel. Large countersink, your thumb etc can be used to polish the crown. No power tools, hand work. The ends of lands are what need to be polished/relieved to make it easier on the patch.
A fine needle file can be used if the user knows how and is careful.
There is a site with a tutorial on this but they are offline for some reason right now.
Basically you need someone who knows ML barrels and crowns.

Piloted crowning tool. Used with 220-600 grit and double stick tape.
Yeah too complex for someone to make without a lathe but a dowel with a similar angle on the end will do about the same thing. On previously cut crowns grits coarser than 320 are not needed finish with 600 in any case.
I use this as a "finish" tool to do the last relief on the lands.
This will do rifle bores down to 54 cal, its set up for a 16 bore as pictured

Dan

 

[45-70cannon]

and I had a problem with the wife's White Mountain Carbine and it wouldn't shoot anything either. I ended up calling the Rochester plant and what they told me about the gun and what it shoots are two different things altogether.
That gun only shoots double f 70 grains (its a 50 cal)
and it shoots (DRUM ROLL HERE) 45 cal sabot. Darn accurate too.


Now then what is barrel lapping and should I consider doing it to my Leonard Day 50 cal war club?

 

[45-70cannon]

Guys, you are talking greek to me. I'm a church organist. ooooooooooostteeeeellllllwoool, does it come from a cow? how about a sheep? Its wool, ain't it? can I cut it off my hamster? (don't have one of them either. But I'm gettin to like my flintlock war club as it is. Too bad it don't shoot!

 

[J.D.]

IMHO, Dan's thoughts are right on. For those who don't have access to steel wool, green scrubbies from the grocery will do the same thing. Just cut a 2" square piece and using a jag one caliber smaller than the bore, i.e. and 45 cal jag if scrubbing a 50 cal barrel.

The second thing that needs to be addressed is patching with higher thread count. I recommend #40 cotton drill or heavy wt denim. IMHO, modern pillow ticking has too low thread count for good patching.

The third thing I suggest is using spit for lube, rather than grease lubes.
An acquaintance had a similar problem that was solved by using #40 cotton drill and a spit patch. His gun is now a one hole shooter from the first shot, and no blown or torn patches.

lonehunter,
If this is a new gun, first look at the sights to make sure they are not loose. Then folow the instructions in the posts above.

If these are new to you, used guns, I suggest cleaning the bores, heavily, to remove any possible yellow lube that might be gumming up the bore.

For that matter, it won't hurt to clean a new bore with brake cleaner, or some other solvent to remove any factory applied preservatives, before shooting.

God bless

 

[R.M.]

JD
What thickness is that material?

 

[Dphar]

and I had a problem with the wife's White Mountain Carbine and it wouldn't shoot anything either. I ended up calling the Rochester plant and what they told me about the gun and what it shoots are two different things altogether.
That gun only shoots double f 70 grains (its a 50 cal)
and it shoots (DRUM ROLL HERE) 45 cal sabot. Darn accurate too.


Now then what is barrel lapping and should I consider doing it to my Leonard Day 50 cal war club?

Lapping is casting a lead lap on a rod, in the bore then coating it with abrasive. If you don't know how to do the casting and don't have some compound and a rod with a free running bearing handle don't do it.
Most rifles with blown patch problems are too thin a patch/bad crown/rough bore.
I use "modern" .020"+ blue stripe ticking and can generally reuse the patches if I had the inclination. But have not bought any in a year or so.
Drill, denim almost anything will work that fits.

To check the crown use a piece of patching about 6" square, lube the middle with patch lube then seat a ball flush with the muzzle and pull it back out with excess material. If the patch shows cuts or fraying where the bore meets the ball you need a different crown.
The load a ball normally without powder and pull it with a puller. OIL the bore FIRST! No WD-40, OIL or patch lube. WD-40 is not always all that slick.
Look at the patch. If its not cut or abraded the bore may be OK and there is some other problem.
But a RB barrel should not blow patches.
Try shooting it with a wad like a wonder wad etc. Should be somewhat oversized since its forced to conform to the shape of the ball under pressure.

Dan

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Since you aren't that far away from Leonard, why not drop by the shop and talk to him? Or at least give him a call?

I don't use any ball and patch combination that I can't thumb start and usually put an overpowder wad between the ball and powder. An extremely tight ball/patch combination like you are talking about can cut the patch while being seated. 60-90 grains of powder is a rough figure for a .50 caliber rifle, and some prefer FFg to FFFg. What lube are you using?

 

[lonehunter]

Have not tried a denim patch, thats about the only thing i havent tried. cleaned,scrubbed,lapping compound,wads under ball and conicles,60-90 grs powder 5grn at a time. lube= borebutter,spit,stumpys moosemilk,mixture of beeswax and oliveoil,2ff,3fff,goex, patches look ok,little ragged on edges with stiffer loads. off bench 50 yrds, set it down pick up .45 and make cloverleaf from same bench. :cursing: It is a older t/c hawken (had the old style lock,that went into the mail this a.m.) but had never been fired, brand new condition, my brother bought it years ago. It is driving me nuts. I will give the smaller ball, denim patch a try. if i had all the money that has gone into trying to get this thing to shoot ,i would be on my way to a custom gun :redface: And not to step on toes, I am not a big sabot fan, just dont like plastic in my barrel. :v
Its a great noise maker :grin:

 

[paulvallandigham]

Again, measure the bore diameter and groove diameter using simple calipers. You can buy a dial caliper over the internet from many suppliers for about $20.00. Even an Organ player should own his own calipers.

You measure the Rate of Twist of your rifling by running a jag with a very tight patch, or two, down the barrel, tape the rod at the muzzle. mark the muzzle where the tape is aligned, and then SLOWLY pull the rod out, letting it turn with the grooves of the rifle. When the tape has made a 1/4 turn, in relation to the muzzle mark, measure the length of the rod sticking out the muzzle to the tape. Now multiply that length by 4( quarter turn) to get the Rate of twist, such as 1 turn in 48 inches{1:48}).

If you need help with terminology and can't find the answers under " Member Resources" on the index page to this forum(look for "charts" ) Then send me a PT, and I will walk you through this stuff.

Go to Bob Spenser's Website, Black Powder Notebook
http://members.aye.net/~bspen/index.html

and read the articles he has there to educate yourself about MLers and terminology. It will increase the fun you are having, and allow you to be less intimidated by some of the questions we are asking.

 

[45-70cannon]

O.K. I've done the steel wool thing and the barrel is even all the way without any tight spots in it.
The gun likes 80 gr.double F .015 patch (I spit patch em) although Ox yoke Lube makes the fit a bit tighter, and a .490 ball, although I've also tried .495 balls as well.
I brought it back to Leonard twice and the first time he glassed the barrel. The second he just tried shooting it and was happy hitting the paper at 40 yards and told me to fine tune the rest.
Well guess what knothead, I can hit the paper at fifty yards and twenty five first ball out too. You'll just miss the target that's all!
First ball out usually hits four o'clock outside the circle. Ball number 2 shoots at 11 inside the circle. Ball 3 shoots at 3 o'clock in the inner circle o utside of the bull. Ball 4 shoots just left of the bull and ball five and the next 100 or so go through the bull!
Everytime no matter what i use! Now I don't bother with Leonard. I would love it if I could get a Dehaas barrel (or however you spell it). He has the best, I guess.

 

[J.D.]

JD
What thickness is that material?

I assume you are asking about the #40 cotton drill?

All I have bought runs about .018. Denim runs between .020-.025, or so, depending on the bolt.

Gotta use a mic to determine the thickness of the fabric, or your whistling into the wind. Even commercially cut patches can vary as much a .005-.010 from the advertised thickness, so ya gotta mic any patching you plan to use, to insure consistent patch thickness.

 

[Birddog6]

If you are not doing all of this from sand bags, you are wasting your time. You need to bag the rifle soundly at the butt & about at the entrypipe & eliminate ALL shooter error you can. Swab between shots Done & Back, one time, same amount of lube on the swab & down & back a even stroke. Then reload & then all over again. Shoot at 25 yards, cause until you get 3 shots touching at 25 yards, there is no use going any further down range. Don't worry about hitting the bull, in fact I don't want to hot the bull, as if I hit it it distorts the original sight picture. Leave it off the bull & keep the sight picture consistent. You can move the sights to the bull when ya are all done.

Also, if you have to hammer the ball in either the ball is too large or the patch is too thick. Well, unless you want to hammer them all the time, some do. Thread count is important. The tighter the ball/patch combo, the tighter the thread count needs to be.

As for lapping with valve grinding compound..... IMHO NOT. a good idea unless you really know what you are doing...... Seen allot of good barrels ruined by guys that think they know what they are doing lapping a barrel & 99% of they were just fooling themselves.

0000 Steel wool on a oiled jag or a piece of Scotchbrite on a 1 cal under bore size jag usually will take the patch cutting edge off rifling. Getz has used it on their new barrels for years.

:thumbsup:

 

[Tom Compton]

I doubt it is a load/ball/patch issue. Loose sights have been mentioned and I have doubts that issue would be as repeatable as described above.

With a modern cartridge gun, point of impact change as described would be initially attributed to bedding and pressure changes as the barrel heats. Knowing the rate of fire here does not produce such heating, suggest still a function of bedding. So, inspect barrel channel for indications of pressure or movement, check to see that the lugs and keys are snug, double check the tang attachement to the stock.

Good luck,
TC

 

[Russ T Frizzen]

Not sure who you're calling a knothead, but I hope it isn't Leonard. He is one of the best people in the business. Besides, that's not very nice talk from a church organist!

Try some different lubes. A beewax and tallow mix with some olive oil added in colder weather is good. Try a 50-50 mix at first and play with it until it's pliable enough.

There are a number of fine barrel makers out there. Unless your barrel is bent you should not need to change it. If you are pounding the ball down the bore you are distorting the ball at the very least and you aren't doing the rifle much good either. I may have missed it, but what type of rifle do you have? Barrel length? Is it straight or swamped. After you zeroed the rifled, did you set the sights firmly? There are a number of things that can be affecting the gun and the more information we have, the more helpful we can be.