Pyrodex...will somebody please explain?

[CaptainKirk]

I might mention, that Pyrodex was DESIGNED to have a higher ignition point from a safety aspect by Hodgdon to make it safer to ship, handle, and store, according to literature I've read from Hodgdon themselves.
Those of you with 25# of BP in your basement might want to check with your homeowner's policy as to whether or nor your dwelling would be covered in the event of a home fire.
Think about it...higher flash point...flintlock vs caplock...Guess what? I wouldn't load it in a flinter either, unless I had no choice.
Personally, I care little what anyone shoots. It's all good to me.
Does anyone remember the mid seventies, when Thompson-Center came out with their black powder rifles? Old-times looked down their noses at the newcomers with their "phony, newfangled garbage" because they weren't "authentic".
Now they carry a pretty hefty price tag and are highly respected in the BP circle. This is the "New Normal". So are sub black powders. You might not like them. You don't have to use them. But get used to others shooting them because they're here to stay.
And in case you wondered, no. I have no ties to Hodgdon or Pyrodex. I buy it and shoot it because:
1) I can get it locally.
2) I can buy a pound at a time.
3) I don't experience misfires.
4) My guns aren't rusty.
You are free to buy and shoot what you choose. So are we.

 

[CaptainKirk]

I don't want to read the whole thread again, but could you quote when someone said to you personally "don't use use Pyro Captain".

Just curious.

Nobody did.
But I did read several posts here where newcomers were advised NOT to use it for various reasons, none of which I can personally substantiate by my own experience. Prove me wrong; hey I'll back you up 100%. But until somebody does, I don't roll over and jump on the HateMobile on the basis of somebody else's testimony. And you don't sound as if you would either.
Maybe we should just have a beer and agree to disagree? :v

 

[Pete Gaimari]

I don't want to read the whole thread again, but could you quote when someone said to you personally "don't use use Pyro Captain".

Just curious.

Nobody did.
But I did read several posts here where newcomers were advised NOT to use it for various reasons, none of which I can personally substantiate by my own experience. Prove me wrong; hey I'll back you up 100%. But until somebody does, I don't roll over and jump on the HateMobile on the basis of somebody else's testimony. And you don't sound as if you would either.
Maybe we should just have a beer and agree to disagree? :v

I have no problem with that. Sometimes I have a little fun with heated discussions. Some seem to think i'm mad and are arguing. Not true.

I think the only point I was trying to make was that BP is a bit more reliable in guns that have ignition problems. You have to do something drastically wrong to make BP not fire. I agree it can be a pain to get in some areas. It's worth it to me to get the reliability. I don't expect everybody to feel that way and they don't. So be it.

This forum is full of members with strong opinions. I like that. It makes for good conversations.

As for us? No negative feelings on my part. You like Pyro. I like BP. Not a big deal.

No harm, no foul bro. :thumbsup:

 

[Kentuckywindage]

By falling in a creek, or a well or a pond, fall out of a boat get caught in a toad drowning rain any number of things can happen and do happen that is why

The only time ive seen people in a Well in on the TV program 48 hours and they are normally dead :haha:

Fall in a creek or pond and pull a wet charge and let it dry out in a days hunt, i dont think so. Its just not happening. In the old days when you actually were in the wild, Yes extremely possible. Today? No

 

[CaptainKirk]

I don't want to read the whole thread again, but could you quote when someone said to you personally "don't use use Pyro Captain".

Just curious.

Nobody did.
But I did read several posts here where newcomers were advised NOT to use it for various reasons, none of which I can personally substantiate by my own experience. Prove me wrong; hey I'll back you up 100%. But until somebody does, I don't roll over and jump on the HateMobile on the basis of somebody else's testimony. And you don't sound as if you would either.
Maybe we should just have a beer and agree to disagree? :v

I have no problem with that. Sometimes I have a little fun with heated discussions. Some seem to think i'm mad and are arguing. Not true.

I think the only point I was trying to make was that BP is a bit more reliable in guns that have ignition problems. You have to do something drastically wrong to make BP not fire. I agree it can be a pain to get in some areas. It's worth it to me to get the reliability. I don't expect everybody to feel that way and they don't. So be it.

This forum is full of members with strong opinions. I like that. It makes for good conversations.

As for us? No negative feelings on my part. You like Pyro. I like BP. Not a big deal.

No harm, no foul bro. :thumbsup:

Now...about that beer? :wink:

 

[Herb]

Zonie, it always seems to me that the people who heap abuse on the synthetic black powders are saying "Look at me, I'm a real man, I shoot only real black powder! You creeps who use that other stuff better cut it out or your thingy will fall off!" Several kinds of people say this stuff. Some have tried these powders with poor results, which means insufficient good testing to make it work. Others repeat the bad stuff with no personal experience. Others have read my posts about these powders and know they can work well but still say they won't work, and they are flat liars.

I have used several pounds (maybe 6?) of Pyrodex P, RS, Triple 7 3F and 2F, and fired many hundreds of shots through flintlocks, and caplocks. They work perfectly well. The reason I began testing Pyrodex is I got a half bottle of Pyrodex P at a yard sale, no idea how old it was or if it was any good. It wasn't, in my caplock it gave up to 500 fps velocity spread. So I called Chris Hodgdon to ask about the powder. I don't remember what he said about it (it was April, 2002), but he asked if I'd ever tried Triple 7 powder. I'd never heard of it. So he sent me writer's samples of 3 pounds each of Triple 7 2F, 3F, Pyrodex P and RS.

This is my bench and an early Lancaster (I guess) with a .50 Rice 42" B barrel and L&R Classic flintlock I'm building. White Lightning flashhole liner, not opened up, hole is about .050 in diameter. Chronograph. 100 yard range. I'd measure 95 grains of the powder and tap the measure to settle the powder 5 grains then add Goex 3F on top (5 grains) and pour that down the bore. Primed with Goex 3F from the can. Just like it says on the bottle. ("May be used in flintlocks with 5 grains of black powder as a starter...")

I fired two foulers on the lower right target, then went to the top left for record. .490 cast balls with .020 OxYoke patch and wool over-powder wad. This is RS I bought perhaps in June, 1982 for $11.49. Can't read the lot number. 28 years old, shot 7 was not a full charge, can was empty. Mean velocity 1985 fps. No cleaning or wiping for first 28 shots with Pyrodex RS, Select, Triple 7 3F and 2F.

Second target (100 yards) was with yard sale Pyrodex Select, maybe 10.92 (October 1992?), Lot number 391-2H6151, cost label is $14.99. Mean velocity 1897 fps.

Third target is with 95 grains of Triple 7 3F and 5 grains of Goex 3F booster and pan prime. Radio interference with chronograph, so I shot 8 shots to get 5 velocities. Mean velocity 2183 fps. Hodgdon's data booklet shows 100 grains of T73F getting 1997 fps in a .50 with a round ball, and they use the same load (100 grains) with conicals up to 410 grains.

Fourth target is with Triple 7 2F, same as above, 7 shots mean velocity 2172 fps. (Hodgdon shows 1988 fps with this load). No cleaning or wiping yet, every shot fired normally.

On the 5th target (center bottom), I cleaned the bore before using the Goex 3F and cleaned after 7 shots of Goex 3F. I used a patch dampened with cleaning solution on the jag as I seated each ball. Goex 3F, 100 grains mean velocity is 1977 fps. Then using 100 grains of Goex 2F, 7 shots mean velocity 1839 fps.

The above test was basically a velocity comparison, none of the loads were worked up for accuracy. I have used very litle Pyrodex P, and have not tested it enough to develop accurate loads. This test was in a .50 caliber 38" B-weight Rice barrel with a Manton flintlock. .070 White Lightning flash hole liner. No cleaning or wiping for all 18 shots. Patch was some .015 stuff that blew apart, thus the poor accuracy. 50 yards. Wool OPW used on second target and leather OPW on bottom target. This is the Pyrodex P that Chris Hodgdon sent me in April, 2002. 95 grains with 5 grains of Goex 3F boost and pan prime, mean velocity is 1750 fps without OPW (first target top left) and 1801 with wool OPW. Every shot fired normally. Velocity spread probably due to poor patching. These powders require tight patching, .020 OxYoke, pillow ticking or levi material work well, and you may need over powder wads, too. I don't have any lube tests. Bottom target was fired with 95 grains of Triple 7 3F and 5 grains of Goex 3F boost with 3F pan prime, and a leather OPW. Six shots, mean velocity 2221 fps, 63 fps spread. Maybe the leather OPW helped make velocity spread less.

I'll address the use in caplocks and comparative cost in another post. So quit saying that Pyrodex and Triple 7 won't work in flintlocks or your thingy will fall off.

 

[Josh Smith]

Hello Herb,

My biggest complaint with Pyrodex is the ignition temp.

To get it to ignite as fast as black, I have to drill a stainless steel nipple out to .040" and use magnum caps. This is basically a musket setup in a #11 package.

If I don't do this, I get a "snap boom" instead of a "boom". I do not like hearing the cap snap.

If the ignition temp was lowered to 400 or even 500, it would work a whole lot better.

As is, it's a poor substitute for black powder in sidelock cap guns just because of the ignition point.

That's all I personally have against the stuff. It's too chemically similar to black powder to hold much else against it.

The others, Triple Se7en etc, are mostly black powder with one or two ingredients removed, usually the sulfur - the sulfur is what gives black its low ignition point (mods, I doubt that was over the line, but if it was, please just put a period after "sulfur" and leave out the description of what it does).

Josh

 

[August West]

I used pyrodex for years and have killed a lot of game with it. I had a TC 12 gauge that I bought used that would misfire with pyro, I put a new nipple on it and it went boom every time even with pyro. My experience has been different from Josh's I get more misfires with a drilled out or burnt out nipple.

I do like black better and since I found out you can order it through the mail, at what I think is a decent price, I shoot black now. I do think that black is less corrosive and more consistant, this is seat of the pants reasoning with nothing but practical experience. Chris

 

[jaw69]

How about the pound in your horn that just gets a little damp. and for falling in a well you dont live where I do where National forest Land has hundreds of old home steads with wells no houses. These are now are prime squirrel hunting woods. Have you ever been looking up and stepped on something not right and it turns out to be the edge of a old rotten piece of tin covering a well filled to the top with water I have so saying that to say this Falling in a well can happen and does and people live.

 

[kelleyjk]

OK #1 August West not replying to you this is the only reply button for general replies to the thread

#2 Herb I done shot several pounds of (insert derisive name of choice here) back in the 1980s and my thingy is still intact and working fine thank you

#3 I dont use Goex because the "old timers" did, arent these so called "old timers" the same guys that used leeches to treat various maladies and at the time, unknown viral infections ? :hmm:

#4 Internet forums seem to operate like the real world, except the fact that we're not in the same room face to face lets the little guys beat up on the big guys well, at least folks say things on the keyboard they wouldnt say F2F LOL OMG look Im texting dudes

#5 Not sure about your village but in DFW USA Hodgdons "imitation black powder" sells for close to $20 per pound

#6 Because young master Josh has explained it so articulately, I will endeavour to follow his lead by starting every reply with

Hello,

or maybe I'll use Waugh I think the old timers said it better

and like I said before:

:v:

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Pretty spunky for an old fart Herb. :rotf:

 

[zimmerstutzen]

Some of you sadly mistake disdain for pyrodex as the same for all substitutes. I will use trip 7 in a heart beat before Pyrodex. But only in my percussion guns.

Here in PA real black is much easier to find than in most places. We have a flint only season, so black stays in demand here.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Some of you sadly mistake disdain for pyrodex as the same for all substitutes. I will use trip 7 in a heart beat before Pyrodex. But only in my percussion guns.

Here in PA real black is much easier to find than in most places. We have a flint only season, so black stays in demand here.

I would only have disdain for it if I was forced to use it.

 

[Herb]

Thanks, Capper. I need that reassurance more and more it seems.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Thanks, Capper. I need that reassurance more and more it seems.

You made it to 77. You must be doing something right. :grin:

I'd be happy with another 10 years of hunting. I'll take more, but i'd be happy.

 

[Kentuckywindage]

How about the pound in your horn that just gets a little damp. and for falling in a well you dont live where I do where National forest Land has hundreds of old home steads with wells no houses. These are now are prime squirrel hunting woods. Have you ever been looking up and stepped on something not right and it turns out to be the edge of a old rotten piece of tin covering a well filled to the top with water I have so saying that to say this Falling in a well can happen and does and people live.

Horns around here are about as worthless and teats on a bull. Tried it one year and the plug just falls out when it catches on brush. I use powder tubes that are 100% water proof and take up a whole lot less room.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Pretty good load of powder you got there.

 

[Kentuckywindage]

i think that was either 110-120gr American Pioneer.

 

[jaw69]

Where can I find this new fangled tube thing. I know where. I must travel to the future Where guns shoot pyrodex or 3 sevens use scopes and the other new things Sabots or so I here. I try my level best to get away from that new future stuff anyway I can and that is why I shoot Black Powder with a flintlock most of the time . Wear wool and leather and carry a horn.

 

[Pete Gaimari]

Where can I find this new fangled tube thing. I know where. I must travel to the future Where guns shoot pyrodex or 3 sevens use scopes and the other new things Sabots or so I here. I try my level best to get away from that new future stuff anyway I can and that is why I shoot Black Powder with a flintlock most of the time . Wear wool and leather and carry a horn.

Damn wool underwear drives me nuts.