Traditional M/L Guns from India

[rickystl]

What a great thread! Regarding the large powder chamber, Edward Archer Langley mentioned in "Narrative of a residence at the court of Meer Ali Moorad" in 1860:

"The matchlocks of Sindh are heavy, awkward weapons, and most unwieldy, from the stock, which is curiously shaped, being out of all proportion too light for the barrel; but they take a very heavy charge, and throw a ball to a great distance."

This period quote if talking about the Sindh guns, in my opinion would be right on correct. Hmmm... I don't seem to have a top view photo of the breech of my Sindh gun. But it is indeed heavy and could easily withstand a heavy charge. While I think I understand what the Sindhi gun builders were trying to accomplish with the general shape of the butt stock, I don't understand the reasoning for it being so thin. It would not be all that difficult to get a broken wrist in the stock just from loading. You have to be really careful. In the past, I've viewed a couple matchlocks. The stocks were built just like my percussion gun. The period wrist repair on my gun looks like it could have been done by the same gunsmith who originally built the gun (?). Still a big mystery to me.

Rick

 

[rickystl]

Another cool little accessory: An original fire stricker from Southern India in perfect condition. Bought this from a renown dealer in Israel.
Dates to the 18th Century.

Rick

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Hi Rick,
I have one of these somewhere, but may be an old repro, as it won't strike a spark!
Easy enough to fit a bit of high carbon to it I suppose, when I get around to it!

Couple of pictures of my skinny little workhorse as he came. looks like the vultures had fed off him a good while!
He's all back to working now, but no pictures yet! Been fixed a Long time though.
Plain munitions grade. But Handy even with the long barrel! and Very reliable for shooting varmints.

 

[Rudyard]

Well there's a real 'Document'. I've blanked out a stock for just such a gun & my original is similar to your relic I could never figure out how the wood differered we wouldnt dream of trusting to a glued on part that took the thrust of the recoiling but there you have it they seemingly nay Evidently DID do just that not that there's that much wood in them to begin with the side plates seem to answer for a stock at mid point lock region. They remind me of Gunga Dins uniform .

'viz. "The uniform e wore , was nothin much before an rather less than arf o that be'hind "For piece o twisty rag an a goatskin water bag was all the field- equipment e could find ". (R Kipling )

The old barrel Ime stocking has no stout loop or tang just the forged on pan & wrought rear sight I see your's at least thrusts into the butt stock for about a third of it's lower edge .& it looks like they needed to go that route to get the 'lock' in yet my Omani stocked original has no such aid. The only Indian piece orig shows a denser different hard wood likley perhaps glued on though the visual part of the stock is covered with a veneer of some exotically figured wood . & when new with its watered steel side & under plates & a nicely twisted barrel must when new have been stunning , if so Bubba'd & worn all this glory is hard to envision now .


As an aside there where seeming gillions of these sorts shipped in by the ton to World Wide Arms / Weller & Dufteys; Westley Richards & others they where cheap as chips 'Decore' most every '.Native State' Palace had these in quantity . But since no longer paid Pensions . By Britain after Independance they had to sell off these armories' & let the Palaces go to rack & ruin for want of income .Like Nepaul there didn't seem to be the crippling Death Duties that ruined many UK estates , So they lived in mostly decrepit once grand houses . Due to the political connections they once had changing .
Regards Rudyard

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Rudyard,
I had a Very long series of letters passed on to me by Sarah, and written by a young lady travelling in northern India.
She photographed many once beautiful homes and ancient forts, all falling now into rack and ruin.
Some were very early historical structures, and had been beautifully painted, and now were sinking into the ground in decay.
It is criminal for such historic, and even prehistoric monuments to India's ancient civilisations to be allowed to disappear, but India does not, or at least did not have anything on the lines of a heritage or archaeological societies able to take care of these disappearing landmarks.

With arms from India, it can be Very frustrating attempting to come up with provenance. "Sword, from India " type thing is typical.
This because the mainly British dealers exporting literally tons of old arms, did not want others to know their hunting grounds, so did not give away any secrets.
Such a lot of history was lost because of this. Yes, the arms from Tanjore are mostly easy to recognize, but in northern India, little was given away as to the actual location for these complete collections.

One book may help with this.
It was recently published and written by a friend, Danish but living in Switzerland.
His name Jens Nordlund.
My copy is loaned out, but believe the title is "A lifetime's passion". The book shows all the arms collected by Jens.
He was not just a collector, but has spent a great deal of his life researching the arms of India.
Jens knows more about Indian arms than anyone else I am quite sure. He is often buried deep in his studies of Old manuscripts.
The book is not just a beautiful picture book, it also contains all the information he had up to the time of publishing, with many arms going back Much earlier than they are often given credit for.
It was Jens who told me the age of a certain tulwar I have, and which armoury it came from and who the reigning Rajah was at the time in Rajasthan.
(1640's)

All the best,
Richard.

 

[Rudyard]

Rudyard,
I had a Very long series of letters passed on to me by Sarah, and written by a young lady travelling in northern India.
She photographed many once beautiful homes and ancient forts, all falling now into rack and ruin.
Some were very early historical structures, and had been beautifully painted, and now were sinking into the ground in decay.
It is criminal for such historic, and even prehistoric monuments to India's ancient civilisations to be allowed to disappear, but India does not, or at least did not have anything on the lines of a heritage or archaeological societies able to take care of these disappearing landmarks.

With arms from India, it can be Very frustrating attempting to come up with provenance. "Sword, from India " type thing is typical.
This because the mainly British dealers exporting literally tons of old arms, did not want others to know their hunting grounds, so did not give away any secrets.
Such a lot of history was lost because of this. Yes, the arms from Tanjore are mostly easy to recognize, but in northern India, little was given away as to the actual location for these complete collections.

One book may help with this.
It was recently published and written by a friend, Danish but living in Switzerland.
His name Jens Nordlund.
My copy is loaned out, but believe the title is "A lifetime's passion". The book shows all the arms collected by Jens.
He was not just a collector, but has spent a great deal of his life researching the arms of India.
Jens knows more about Indian arms than anyone else I am quite sure. He is often buried deep in his studies of Old manuscripts.
The book is not just a beautiful picture book, it also contains all the information he had up to the time of publishing, with many arms going back Much earlier than they are often given credit for.
It was Jens who told me the age of a certain tulwar I have, and which armoury it came from and who the reigning Rajah was at the time in Rajasthan.
(1640's)

All the best,
Richard.

Dear Pukka .Yes my findings and very accurate record re UK dealers scoopings Ide say, All Prime ministers since 47 have been resentlfull of the' Ex Rulers '. and there is no hint of historical preservation beyound the Taj Mahall maybe its seems all Left Wing outlook . Give Jens my regards . Ime no' Mull'(Old India hand) but did have a taste of it at least .Cheers Me


PS How availabl & what price the book byJens ? Me

 

[Flint62Smoothie]

Looks like only 100 were printed! See info below …

A PASSION FOR INDIAN ARMS – A Private Collection 2016 by Jens Nordlunde, with 366 Pages, which includes over 500 detailed colour images. THIS IS BOOK NUMBER 94/100A rare, limited edition paperback book of only 100 printed copies, each individually hand numbered. The collection was formed over a period of fifty years, and the catalogue includes detailed descriptions based upon decades of research on Indian weaponry, associated art and history. The collection comprises of 137 high quality arms, divided into four categories (Daggers, Katars, Swords and Miscellaneous) and the book additionally includes a number of scholarly articles covering various aspects of the subject. These are the last few copies and it will be impossible to find or buy in the future.

 

[Rudyard]

Looks like only 100 were printed! See info below …





View attachment 185937


A PASSION FOR INDIAN ARMS – A Private Collection 2016 by Jens Nordlunde, with 366 Pages, which includes over 500 detailed colour images. THIS IS BOOK NUMBER 94/100A rare, limited edition paperback book of only 100 printed copies, each individually hand numbered. The collection was formed over a period of fifty years, and the catalogue includes detailed descriptions based upon decades of research on Indian weaponry, associated art and history. The collection comprises of 137 high quality arms, divided into four categories (Daggers, Katars, Swords and Miscellaneous) and the book additionally includes a number of scholarly articles covering various aspects of the subject. These are the last few copies and it will be impossible to find or buy in the future.

Then Ile be lucky to see a copy unless its reprinted as mayhap it will. I havn't got the book Ricksi wrote of but at least its available at a cost beyound me as it is happens . But I did sell a mid 18th Pointed tree Powder horn so might have some US$ to indulge once the auction house coffs up . Did you get the post I wrote re my Numbers & Brer Kits Stamp ?.
Regards Rudyard

 

[Rudyard]

"Rick,
Have you any theories as to why barrels from India have such terrible bores?
We hardly ever see a decent one, though the outsides may look fine.
I can think of the odd and remote circumstance that could cause Some barrels to have bad bores, but why seemingly all of them is beyond explanation.
Cultural?
As in, it is old, no longer required so to heck with it?
I am sure the bores were very good originally.
Some guns surrendered in the mutiny may have been used ad not cleaned, but that would be only a handful of all the toradors we see, and only from the north of India."

That's a good question. You never see one with even a half-way decent bore. It's as if they were never cleaned after shooting. And if the bores were that bad, imagine what the narrow section and powder chamber would look like. Bobby Hoyt said I would never have been able to get a single "patched" ball down the bore without tearing the patch to pieces. But the locals probably used a bare ball (or maybe smaller shot) with wadding on top. Maybe, as you mentioned, the barrels were used until they couldn't be loaded any more, and discarded ? A Sultan could have maybe 100 workers making barrels every day ? LOL. I still don't know how they would go about cleaning the powder chamber. But yes, the bores on these original Torador barrels are awful.

By the way, do you know if your Omani barrel(s) have the same bore configuration as the Torador barrels ? Or are they straight cylinder bore ? Or.....is it possible they have a smaller than bore size powder chamber similar to some original hand gonnes ?
And, since the barrel tangs appear to be forged with the barrel, would you have a photo of the breech plug ? Thanks.

Rick

My 'Scots stocked 'Omai Brl has the reduced breach region chamber it totals about 4" Solid forged breech no threaded plug .as is usual on these ,
Regards Rudyard

 

[cyten]

an excerpt from the 1843 "Personal Observations On The Sindh" by Capt Thomas Postans

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Is the above from Eggerton, Cyten? I know I have read this somewhere before!

It may be that Lord Eggerton quoted the above author.
Thanks for posting it!

 

[cyten]

Is the above from Eggerton, Cyten? I know I have read this somewhere before!

It may be that Lord Eggerton quoted the above author.
Thanks for posting it!

Unsure of Eggerton, this is a screenshot from the digital copy of the book title mentioned in my post. Though many authors seem to share the same opinions on the matter from that period.

 

[TobJohn]

I came across this example, that is labelled as "Indopersian":
INDOPERSIAN MATCHLOCK MUSKET TORADAR, 17th- 18th CENTURY
As one of the gunpower empires, did Persia mostly use Indian style arms?

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Short answer no, John.
They had their own traditional styles, not the torador.

 

[TobJohn]

Short answer no, John.
They had their own traditional styles, not the torador.

So probably mislabeled on the website?

 

[Pukka Bundook]

"Indo -Persion" is another way of saying "in that neck of the woods ", or that general geographic area, but Actual India and Persia had separate arms, that often overlap in ideas and construction.
India itself has specific styles in different areas, so it is all very general!

 

[Barud]

I came across this example, that is labelled as "Indopersian":
INDOPERSIAN MATCHLOCK MUSKET TORADAR, 17th- 18th CENTURY
As one of the gunpower empires, did Persia mostly use Indian style arms?

I would argue that the Safavid firearms were probably more Turkish in influence. We know that the first Safavid artillery pieces were reverse engineered from lost Ottoman cannons (a single one found by a river, I think) and that Ottoman firepower was what turned the tide of battle at Chaldiran, where the two empires first met on the field of battle. Similarly, if I recall correctly, Babur's head of musketeers was a man named Mustafa Rumi, Rumi being of Rum, i.e. Anatolia. The few Persian muskets I've seen all showed Ottoman/Caucasian influence.

 

[rickystl]

Hi John

Much agree with Pukka's remarks above. The general stock shape of many of the Persian guns looked very similar to Caucasian guns. Or, you could say this in reverse. I tend to think the latter. All Persian made complete guns tend to be very rare today. I seem to remember reading a long time ago that much of Persia's guns were destroyed during the 19th Century by an invading army. But I can't confirm this. If true, that would account for their rarity today. Persia was also known then for the quality of their barrels.
Here is a pic of one of those all Persian made survivors in my collection. Authority Artzi Yarom places this gun late 18th, early 19th century.

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

I would argue that the Safavid firearms were probably more Turkish in influence. We know that the first Safavid artillery pieces were reverse engineered from lost Ottoman cannons (a single one found by a river, I think) and that Ottoman firepower was what turned the tide of battle at Chaldiran, where the two empires first met on the field of battle. Similarly, if I recall correctly, Babur's head of musketeers was a man named Mustafa Rumi, Rumi being of Rum, i.e. Anatolia. The few Persian muskets I've seen all showed Ottoman/Caucasian influence.

Thanks, Barud!
Safavid… I had totally blanked on the empires name.
Ottoman influence makes sense and why I was initially curious because I know they were in frequent conflict, while I wasn’t sure about their contact/conflict with the Mughals

 

[TobJohn]

Hi John

Much agree with Pukka's remarks above. The general stock shape of many of the Persian guns looked very similar to Caucasian guns. Or, you could say this in reverse. I tend to think the latter. All Persian made complete guns tend to be very rare today. I seem to remember reading a long time ago that much of Persia's guns were destroyed during the 19th Century by an invading army. But I can't confirm this. If true, that would account for their rarity today. Persia was also known then for the quality of their barrels.
Here is a pic of one of those all Persian made survivors in my collection. Authority Artzi Yarom places this gun late 18th, early 19th century.

RickView attachment 187959View attachment 187960

Great example, thanks!

It sounds like they may fall into a similar camp as China, where there are too few survivors for a good thread and the governments have ZERO interest in letting Americans get their hands on the few that do.