Traditional M/L Guns from India

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Thanks for your reply Rick, re. your terrific Sindh gun!

Yes, One day we may find more info on the fluted "Omani" barrels!
These too show no twist pattern, and may have been seam welded in three parts and jumped together.

I do have more photos of the Jaipur guns above, but you get the idea I am sure!

Here is a shot of the hole to extinguish the match; Is this used in other areas as well as up in Jaipur?

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"Rick,
Have you any theories as to why barrels from India have such terrible bores?
We hardly ever see a decent one, though the outsides may look fine.
I can think of the odd and remote circumstance that could cause Some barrels to have bad bores, but why seemingly all of them is beyond explanation.
Cultural?
As in, it is old, no longer required so to heck with it?
I am sure the bores were very good originally.
Some guns surrendered in the mutiny may have been used ad not cleaned, but that would be only a handful of all the toradors we see, and only from the north of India."

That's a good question. You never see one with even a half-way decent bore. It's as if they were never cleaned after shooting. And if the bores were that bad, imagine what the narrow section and powder chamber would look like. Bobby Hoyt said I would never have been able to get a single "patched" ball down the bore without tearing the patch to pieces. But the locals probably used a bare ball (or maybe smaller shot) with wadding on top. Maybe, as you mentioned, the barrels were used until they couldn't be loaded any more, and discarded ? A Sultan could have maybe 100 workers making barrels every day ? LOL. I still don't know how they would go about cleaning the powder chamber. But yes, the bores on these original Torador barrels are awful.

By the way, do you know if your Omani barrel(s) have the same bore configuration as the Torador barrels ? Or are they straight cylinder bore ? Or.....is it possible they have a smaller than bore size powder chamber similar to some original hand gonnes ?
And, since the barrel tangs appear to be forged with the barrel, would you have a photo of the breech plug ? Thanks.

Rick
 
The Toradors from Northern India that I've handled, as I recall, all had this hole to extinguish the match cord, including mine.

The guns from South India have different stock patterns and barrels. I'll post a couple here.

Rick
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Here is an interesting musket from Coorg in the southwest coastal region of India. The somewhat paddle style butt stock is a common feature of Coorg muskets. Probably made during the first quarter of the 1800's. The most interesting feature is the duel ignition. It is both flintlock and matchlock. This shows that some local was willing to conform with the advantage of the later flintlock, but not willing to completely discard their simple, reliable matchlocks. There are two separate triggers. One standard type for the flintlock, and a lever type for the matchlock. Note the flintlock trigger/plate being slightly offset to make room in the mortise for the serpentine bar to travel through. The upper portion of the serpentine can pivot to the left, out of the way when not in use. All very clever. The flintlock is a typical EIC lock. The barrel looks like it could be Ottoman/Turk (?). It's straight cylinder bore. The flintlock could also be a latter addition.
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Here are some pics:

Rick
 
Here is an interesting musket from Coorg in the southwest coastal region of India. The somewhat paddle style butt stock is a common feature of Coorg muskets. Probably made during the first quarter of the 1800's. The most interesting feature is the duel ignition. It is both flintlock and matchlock. This shows that some local was willing to conform with the advantage of the later flintlock, but not willing to completely discard their simple, reliable matchlocks. There are two separate triggers. One standard type for the flintlock, and a lever type for the matchlock. Note the flintlock trigger/plate being slightly offset to make room in the mortise for the serpentine bar to travel through. The upper portion of the serpentine can pivot to the left, out of the way when not in use. All very clever. The flintlock is a typical EIC lock. The barrel looks like it could be Ottoman/Turk (?). It's straight cylinder bore. The flintlock could also be a latter addition.View attachment 184504View attachment 184505View attachment 184506View attachment 184507View attachment 184508View attachment 184509View attachment 184510View attachment 184511 Here are some pics:

Rick
This is a gem! I thought combination locks were only a European development, so wonderful to see an Indian example.
 
This is a gem! I thought combination locks were only a European development, so wonderful to see an Indian example.
Ingenuity knows no frontier's Goorg guns not often encountered . Wait till we get to the Cingalees guns ,Left handed Snaphances . Weird stocks . Yehh! . The butt end looks like its jade or some such . If we keep on like this they will make us honoury members of Viking Sword , Ime sure some of us are if not me . But I did know him & even made a snap matchlock for Mr Tromner it was 'After' a piece by Hanz Morl made in NZ. Proofed at Brum but since he never responded . I took it to the US & it's in Ohio today . I still have the cut out pattern it was one he shewed on his advert sheet . Never did know why he didn't respond . Gone now I know that .
Cheers Rudyard
 
Rick,
Your Coorg piece seems to show the Arab presence which was quite strong in that part of India. Traders and such.
Very interesting piece!
Re torador barrels,
I wasn't meaning just chuck them when used, but more when they were obsolete, bung them out of the way and the monsoon had its way with them!
That kind of thing!
I know many old armouries were knee deep in dust and junk, and these old arms piled everywhere. I just can't come to a rational reason for the outsides looking decent very often, and the inside like a cave.....
The one I posted pics of in the opening thread Does have a liveable bore. Rusty it was but not badly pitted and scaled.
Rick,
"Omani" barrels I have, (2) both have a powder chamber. Forget on one, but the other is about 4" long after the restriction.
I must have a poke at them again, as I do not remember if they enlarge after the restriction, but Think so.
the bores on these are both around .50 cal.
yes, will dig camera out and take pictures but do not hold your breath! I say this as I usually use phone these days, but can Not get the comp. to reccognise the phone to take pics off. It Used to!
I think there is not the least sign of a breechplug though!

I think cleaning the breech would be fairy easy with a loop on an iron rod, and something like sheep wool well wetted.
 
Dear Pukka I today shot that Scots stocked Omani barrel I fed it 2& a quarter dram of Curtis & Harveys number four probably 60s ere was last made that grade . But its fine but to fill the restritction & filled it with oats ( It was on 17th c Scots stocking after all ! ) Then a naked ball of 490 cal . The results where tolerable . But to hunt with it would be taxing as its 48 " brl was heavy I don't Do heavy any more shot a little 58 cal cheek stocked carbine with English lock & small vestigial' dog ' That B I T C H of a prime minister here seemingly has talked your idiot into the gun grab stuff & now they plan such cost increases that few would abide them .Needless and futile usual plan harass the law abiding. But they created massive gang related crime stuu pid and I doubt there scheme will float . When I lived in BC you just bought 303s like you bought tools & washing powder in the Bay in Mackenzie they took peltry & sold crooked knives . 1971 what now no idea . But you thwarted the registration BS Ime sure the same will prevail on this tripe .Trust the word of a politico? believe in fairies same thing .
Cheers ? Rudyard .

PS I. put 'bitch' as in female dog but the machine made it come out as gripe, it isnt a ' gripe' its the same a female dog IE a B I T C H . R
 
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John,
The type in your link, (post 105) is typical of the sort made around Indore in central India.
It's not half as rare or unusual as the seller makes out. It Is good typical example though!

Rick,
Thank you for the info regarding the hole to snuff the match.
A great many I have seen even from northern India, have a metal snuffer attached to the side panel, and this had me wondering!

Re the barrels being forged in one piece with pan and such, I do not know.
I do know I have one barrel that had the rear lug staked into it.
Said lug got torn out , maybe when the barrel was salvaged on a damaged arm, or as booty. It from a barrel from up in Oudh.

see pics.
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It's the barrel shown previously with the silver koftgari.
 
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Rudyard,
That your "Omani" barrel is heavy is interesting. Mine are both long but light.
I found that felt wads seemed to work better than the tradition dried cow dung for wads!
Can you guess how much powder the chamber would hold if filled?
I had it written down one time for mine, But!......
Seems your bore size is close to mine..
 
Rudyard,
That your "Omani" barrel is heavy is interesting. Mine are both long but light.
I found that felt wads seemed to work better than the tradition dried cow dung for wads!
Can you guess how much powder the chamber would hold if filled?
I had it written down one time for mine, But!......
Seems your bore size is close to mine..
Dear Pukka The barrel at 48" long is heavy (or Ime weak ? I will weight it to see . the anti chamber or reduced breach takes the 2 & a Quarter drams then I fill a bigish cartridge case of oats ( Scots oats of course ) that then allows me to ram a 490 ball leaving a good 4 " of rod sticking out the reduced chamber is about 4" long. A guess might be 9 drams Ile go weigh the brl its 6 pounds by my fishing scales . Re Cow Poo I've not tried it ,corn meal or fine oats seem good enough ' I have some light brls but not of the fluted Omani sort .Good old Galloping Major he,s worth two OBEs in my book . We owe hm so much.
Cheers Rudyard
 
Now I must weigh my barrels Rudyard! ("Omani" types that is!)
One's in corner of the kitchen so no hardship on that one.

Earlier I mentioned some toradors having no side panels, and had read "Somewhere"! That this is Sometimes a feature of earlier pieces.

Rick,
You show an example with no side panels earlier in the thread.
It looks in good order, and probably 19th C. (By the barrel form)
Anyway, if we look at the Moghul miniatures, we see for the most part guns with no side panels, so I guess this Can be an early feature, but possibly a later feature too , possibly on munition grade pieces?

Here is one, (not mine!) that looks to be earlier, as there are no panels, but beautifully painted, and nice quality all around.
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The above looks like it comes from Indore in central India.
 
At 72 ALL these guns are starting to get heavy. LOL

Pukka: Thanks for the additional photos. Yes, interesting on the one barrel that had the loop for pinning staked in. Looks like it was done while the barrel was still hot on the forge.
Side panels: The "plain" looking Toradors I have seen (no side panels, decoration, barrel profiling, etc.) all were in only fair to poor condition. Not necessarily from abuse, but from heavy field use. So it's probably a good guess these were munition grade guns for the masses per say. Speaking of which !!! I forgot. I have a barrel (bent) from one of these very plain Toradors. It was given to me from a friend in Atlanta, GA some years ago. It is from the Royal Armoury warehouse in Nepal that was purchased some years ago by Atlanta Cutlery (and IMA I think?). He said it was on a pallet with some other British musket barrels. I'll take some photos when I get a chance.

Omani barrel: So, your's also has the powder chamber. I'm guessing mine will also. DARN. Oh well. It's not like I don't have anything else to shoot. LOL

Another interesting feature with these guns, be it India, Oman, Turk, Afghan, etc. I notice most of the Eastern barrels (excluding Japan) have their rear sights positioned at the far rear of the breach. Whereas Western guns usually did this only with peep-type sites. It's as if the Easterners viewed their long guns as....well, for longer ranges versus short to moderate ranges (?) Just found this curious.

Rick
 
Locally made period pistols from India seem quite rare. Apparently, the locals had little use for them. Here is one I believe from South India. I got this one from an auction at a good enough price to take a chance based on just photos. I've seen a couple others over the years that with the exception of minor lock differences, all looked like they came from the same shop. Tiny nail decoration and all. But I also thought (before receiving it) that it could be one of those better quality, early 1950/60's tourist items. So I was pleased after receiving it. The lock is forged, and functions/sparks well. The barrel is a forging, about .40 caliber smooth bore, with silver work covering the top of the breech and muzzle ends. A slight swell at the breech and a large swell at the muzzle. The decorated barrel tang was forged with the barrel itself. Unfortunately, the breech plug is some type of welded configuration. So it looks like a drilling out of the breech and a threaded plug added along with a minor burnishing of the barrel will make it a shooter. I believe the pistol was made without a trigger guard, and is a later addition.
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Anyway, here are some photos:

Rick
 
An Interesting pistol but I find the altering to make it' a shooter 'disturbing as it depreciates the history , Sure I use up old floating barrels & parts but that pistol is what it is and just goes against the grain to consider it expendable just to fire it now & then . I shot that Old Omani barrel mid week shoot stocked as I did in a conjectural Scots 'Lunt Werk 'style , pure conjectural. But the barrel is no way altered . The long anti chambers might be, In fact are a pain to clean but I took pains to ensure it was well washed out & oiled . New made guns are disposable by excessive shooting their demise is their glory . But much damage has been caused particularly by International shooters who simpley viewed the pristine (In some cases ) guns just tools so they might be better able to win some gong for the greater glory of their National team . We have original guns in trust we are but temporary custodians. Restoration is one thing abuseing their history is quite another matter . Your the last person I want to up set but I felt I should make this point .
Regards Rudyard
 
An Interesting pistol but I find the altering to make it' a shooter 'disturbing as it depreciates the history , Sure I use up old floating barrels & parts but that pistol is what it is and just goes against the grain to consider it expendable just to fire it now & then . I shot that Old Omani barrel mid week shoot stocked as I did in a conjectural Scots 'Lunt Werk 'style , pure conjectural. But the barrel is no way altered . The long anti chambers might be, In fact are a pain to clean but I took pains to ensure it was well washed out & oiled . New made guns are disposable by excessive shooting their demise is their glory . But much damage has been caused particularly by International shooters who simpley viewed the pristine (In some cases ) guns just tools so they might be better able to win some gong for the greater glory of their National team . We have original guns in trust we are but temporary custodians. Restoration is one thing abuseing their history is quite another matter . Your the last person I want to up set but I felt I should make this point .
Regards Rudyard
Well, your point is well taken. And, of course, you are generally correct. I tend to want to refurbish "some" original guns to a degree more than many collectors/shooters would prefer. As it indeed can be considered altering it's history. But, I do know where to draw the line.
I have an original Belgium copy of an English northwest trade fusil that was converted to percussion as most existing specimens were. I came upon this gun by accident. They are quite rare in any condition, and have a unique history here in the U.S. during it's so-called fur trade period. It's only in fair condition at best, but it's all complete. I would not even attempt to alter this gun in any fashion. I am simply the current caretaker.
As for altering the Indian pistol barrel, it was only speculation. I will likely never get around to it with all the other projects ahead of it.
Each gun is an individual case. To restore or not. It can be a tough decision in some cases.

By the way...Merry Christmas.
Rick
 
What a great thread! Regarding the large powder chamber, Edward Archer Langley mentioned in "Narrative of a residence at the court of Meer Ali Moorad" in 1860:

"The matchlocks of Sindh are heavy, awkward weapons, and most unwieldy, from the stock, which is curiously shaped, being out of all proportion too light for the barrel; but they take a very heavy charge, and throw a ball to a great distance."
 

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