Traditional M/L Guns from India

[TobJohn]

If someone had some time and space to do it, it would be cool to see some tests with serpentine powder. Its come up in this thread and the handgonne thread

 

[Rudyard]

Pukka, I beleave that my carbine is what is called a Petronel. is it common for them to have a sliding pan cover? it is pulled back to cover the pan and snaps forward just as the match hits the pan. does this method have a particular name? was it a common feature? toot.

Have a name ? .yes' Rare & unusual 'might by the sound of it fit . Sounds like one of Tipoo Sultans that got away . We really need a pic Toot.
Cheers Rudyard

 

[rickystl]

So here is the fix Bobby Hoyt came up with for my barrel. Again, the goal being to end up with (in this case) a standard type .62 caliber smooth bore the entire length of the barrel, and a threaded breech plug.
First, the forged breech plug was drilled out. It's very difficult to try and photo the inner powder chamber and narrow section. But you can some what make it out. Next, the bore was drilled out including the narrow section to a nominal size to accept the new liner. Then the tough part. Bobby made a steel sleeve fitted to the powder chamber area to mate with the liner. I have no idea how he did this. But if you look down the bore from the muzzle end with a bore light it looks like any other smooth bore barrel. The next challenge was to come up with an idea for a threaded type breech plug that can be removed in the future if needed. The barrels were made with forged in breech plugs with no tangs. So the breech of the barrel just butted up flat against that section of the wood. So you can see in the attached photos what we came up with. All that was then required was a hole bored in to that area of the stock about the same diameter and length as the tail of the breech plug. That way, the barrel and stock matted up together as original.
Bobby said the barrel was quite a challenge. The guy is some type of genius with this type of work. I can't imagine anyone else even attempting this. Anyway, alls well that ended well.

Rick

 

[Rudyard]

If the information in the Royal Armories digital collection is lacking, I’ve had great success emailing them. One of the only museums who emails back…

Yes the RA are help full though other museums have been help full , I can't recall one that wasn't if it's a serious request .
Regards Rudyard

 

[TobJohn]

Yes the RA are help full though other museums have been help full , I can't recall one that wasn't if it's a serious request .
Regards Rudyard

Ill need to brush up on my German and start bothering the Landeszeughaus

 

[Rudyard]

So here is the fix Bobby Hoyt came up with for my barrel. Again, the goal being to end up with (in this case) a standard type .62 caliber smooth bore the entire length of the barrel, and a threaded breech plug.
First, the forged breech plug was drilled out. It's very difficult to try and photo the inner powder chamber and narrow section. But you can some what make it out. Next, the bore was drilled out including the narrow section to a nominal size to accept the new liner. Then the tough part. Bobby made a steel sleeve fitted to the powder chamber area to mate with the liner. I have no idea how he did this. But if you look down the bore from the muzzle end with a bore light it looks like any other smooth bore barrel. The next challenge was to come up with an idea for a threaded type breech plug that can be removed in the future if needed. The barrels were made with forged in breech plugs with no tangs. So the breech of the barrel just butted up flat against that section of the wood. So you can see in the attached photos what we came up with. All that was then required was a hole bored in to that area of the stock about the same diameter and length as the tail of the breech plug. That way, the barrel and stock matted up together as original.
Bobby said the barrel was quite a challenge. The guy is some type of genius with this type of work. I can't imagine anyone else even attempting this. Anyway, alls well that ended well.

RickView attachment 183626View attachment 183627View attachment 183628View attachment 183629View attachment 183630View attachment 183631View attachment 183632

Wow you really went to town on that one My guns bore is' Smoky' but all Ide do is fine bore it best I may If I do have a nice twist barrel stocked up years since with a Migulet Barrel in the Ottoman style be good to have it lined but also getting it done by the near legendary Mr Hoyt would cost too much & incur the anti gun BS we suffer these days . On another tack I did this morning engage a typist who is happy to help me write my life story or the interesting bits She & I are delighted at the prospect I really must do it ere I fall off my Perch . Once done you might know a publisher .Beyound these shores ? .
Regards Rudyard

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Rick,
It's really interesting to see Bob Hoyt's work on this. I bet it gave him a kick as well, doing something so different!
Can you tell me how thick the breech end was Rick?
Some of mine seem thinner than the barrel wall, which doesn't sound good!
Mind you, I have never seen one blow out the forge-welded plug. I know that they used to look at our threaded breeches with as much distrust as we looked at theirs!
It was a fact that some of these far outclassed the musket of the time in range and accuracy, and that is what got me interested in these guns.

It is also interesting that the miniatures depict Rajput ladies shooting big game with these arms, and accompanied only by other ladies.
One or two paintings depict a lady firing at a lion or tiger, whilst another girl stands ready with sword and shield, while a third is loading another torador.
I can't find the image I want, just a detail of the full picture, shared below. Note the loading and shooting accessories beside her, inc the powder horn

 

[toot]

Toot,
On any matchlock, a pan cover that slides away automatically is rather rare!
If a petronel and your computer decides to cooperate, some pictures under a different heading would be fantastic!

I will have my wife try. she gives me one try, and when it doesn't work, she is not my sweet hart. LOL!

 

[toot]

Have a name ? .yes' Rare & unusual 'might by the sound of it fit . Sounds like one of Tipoo Sultans that got away . We really need a pic Toot.
Cheers Rudyard

as posted I will try. as I rely want to share it. no promise though.

 

[zimmerstutzen]

those short butt stocks were to be placed directly on the pectoral muscles of the upper chest. Just under the collar bone. NOT under the arm pit.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Zimmer,
Are you talking about toradors or Toot's possible petronel?

No way in the world a normal torador can be called short in the butt, and the only way to present some , is with that long stock under the arm.
Please clarify.
As for the petronel, it would be impossible to place such a stock under the arm, And fire it!
So again, please clarify what you mean.

 

[Pukka Bundook]

Rick,
Your breech above looks remarkably like one from one of Michael's threads. "Schwamm Schnappschloss" (In English alphabet!)
this from the 1520's by the looks of it and not going to the thread to check!

Of course, all (Or vast majority) of Indian made barrels are breeched in this manner, but it shows where they maybe got the idea, and when!

 

[rickystl]

Rick,
It's really interesting to see Bob Hoyt's work on this. I bet it gave him a kick as well, doing something so different!
Can you tell me how thick the breech end was Rick?
Some of mine seem thinner than the barrel wall, which doesn't sound good!
Mind you, I have never seen one blow out the forge-welded plug. I know that they used to look at our threaded breeches with as much distrust as we looked at theirs!
It was a fact that some of these far outclassed the musket of the time in range and accuracy, and that is what got me interested in these guns.

It is also interesting that the miniatures depict Rajput ladies shooting big game with these arms, and accompanied only by other ladies.
One or two paintings depict a lady firing at a lion or tiger, whilst another girl stands ready with sword and shield, while a third is loading another torador.
I can't find the image I want, just a detail of the full picture, shared below. Note the loading and shooting accessories beside her, inc the powder horn View attachment 183867View attachment 183868

One regret I have is not attempting to measure the approximate circumference of the powder chamber in relation to the barrel wall thickness in that area. Recall the guy in the short film clip "Mugul Matchlock" cutting the breech area of the barrel to show the enlarged powder chamber area. It would have been better if he had he cut the length of the barrel about 3-4" further towards the muzzle. That way, you would have a better view of the powder chamber going to the narrow section then going to the nominal bore size. (I'm still looking for a unwanted barrel to do this myself LOL). But in the case of my barrel, with just a visual inspection, there did seem to still be significant barrel wall thickness even in the chamber area. But there was some heavy corrosion in the narrow section.
I don't really have any concerns that the original forged breech plugs won't hold. Otherwise, they would not have kept making them this way for so long. I too have read where they did not trust threaded breech plugs. But when you read how they made their barrels (I need to find that info !!) it would likely be easier to forge weld a plug in place at that time versus making a seperate threaded component. In fact, the entire musket is made without a single threaded connection or component. It seems they avoided threaded connections whenever possible for most everything they made.

That first pic above showing the two ladies: Notice the barudan style powder flask attached to a belt with other shooting accessories. And a seperate horn-type flask with a carrying strap.

Rick

 

[TobJohn]

One regret I have is not attempting to measure the approximate circumference of the powder chamber in relation to the barrel wall thickness in that area. Recall the guy in the short film clip "Mugul Matchlock" cutting the breech area of the barrel to show the enlarged powder chamber area. It would have been better if he had he cut the length of the barrel about 3-4" further towards the muzzle. That way, you would have a better view of the powder chamber going to the narrow section then going to the nominal bore size. (I'm still looking for a unwanted barrel to do this myself LOL). But in the case of my barrel, with just a visual inspection, there did seem to still be significant barrel wall thickness even in the chamber area. But there was some heavy corrosion in the narrow section.
I don't really have any concerns that the original forged breech plugs won't hold. Otherwise, they would not have kept making them this way for so long. I too have read where they did not trust threaded breech plugs. But when you read how they made their barrels (I need to find that info !!) it would likely be easier to forge weld a plug in place at that time versus making a seperate threaded component. In fact, the entire musket is made without a single threaded connection or component. It seems they avoided threaded connections whenever possible for most everything they made.

That first pic above showing the two ladies: Notice the barudan style powder flask attached to a belt with other shooting accessories. And a seperate horn-type flask with a carrying strap.

Rick

Was metal threading even a technique in India, prior to foreign conquest? Apparently it was only introduced in Japan due to copying European breech plugs, so could be the same for other parts of Asia.

 

[RAEDWALD]

The forged in breech reminds me of Bevis’ matchlock from the old book Bevis, the Story of a Boy. For the few who know it. Amazingly it can still be bought new through Amazon.

Richard, I responded to your query on the other forum. Thank you for letting me fire your Torador when we were visiting.

 

[RAEDWALD]

Was metal threading even a technique in India, prior to foreign conquest? Apparently it was only introduced in Japan due to copying European breech plugs, so could be the same for other parts of Asia.

It was commonplace in the Muslim world so doubtless in India. Interference fit and forging would be easier though if you had no large die and tap. Which is the trickier bit to make than the actual use of them.

 

[RAEDWALD]

Well no reason they can't be reproduced but they do or did seem very common . thousand being sold off from the once well stocked Palaces of the numbers of 'Ex Rulers " as the Indians described them . Makeing the barrel presisly would be a major task but spare barrels seemed to be common. I have waidded cautiously over . Armouries littered with Matchlocks in the dusty grot of the Maharaja of Mahair 's armoury, with belts & buckle's & racks that once held Sniders or some such. And sat sans carriage was a belt fed machine gun midst swords All dust caked but interesting . We negotiated to buy the M locks If all the rest was' thrown in ' . But it didnt in the Event pan out .But I did buy two cased double rifles from HRH Nagod the same day . He held court by hurricane lamps on his porch , He had been out on' Shikar' earlier in the day & two pigs where carried by his bearers slung on poles his rifle was a boxlock double not sure of caliber but nitro . The guns I bought where an old fashioned Lancasters oval bore slide by camming underlever 450 BP 3 & a quarter Express . The other a 450 400 hundred Jefferies sidelock nitro . When I landed at Heathrow the customs man said "Bit of the Raj coming home " true enough ,

' Youth was cheap wherefore we sold it, Gold was good we hoped to hold it ' And Today we know the fullness of our gains "

. From Kipling,s ' Christmas in India '
.
Straying a bit off topic but given a barrel that will pass its 'doable' if the workmanship is often very understated. Mine has 'watered' steel side plates & a fine twist barrel with an exotic veneered wood but now so drab &' got at' its hard to see the quality . I do have one seemingly unused / sold ? Barrel but it is not a fine quality. So many such barrels got taken to UK By the long late Major Corry out of Persia that he sold them off for 3 or 4 pounds apeice some less .Pick your take & I managed to use up a lot. Could be a crusty old fellow but he was the proper' Pukka Sahib' and a noted expert & collector . Anyway so you could get your desired ' Bundook' if not at this time by me .
Regards Rudyard

PS Tobjohn does make a good point R

Was that Noel Corry? I saw a copy of the guide to his collection a couple of years ago. Fascinating miscellany.

 

[Rudyard]

Was that Noel Corry? I saw a copy of the guide to his collection a couple of years ago. Fascinating miscellany.

Yes Major Noel Corry of 'Gun house' Steeple Bumstead can't recall what County but well South of Sheffield . You went to see Pukka good on yer .
Cheers Rudyard

 

[Rudyard]

The forged in breech reminds me of Bevis’ matchlock from the old book Bevis, the Story of a Boy. For the few who know it. Amazingly it can still be bought new through Amazon.

Richard, I responded to your query on the other forum. Thank you for letting me fire your Torador when we were visiting.

Yes Bevis & Mark 'Will white hot shut tight ?'. & the blacksmith charged him sixpence .
More cheers Rudyard

 

[Pukka Bundook]

John,
I too bought barrels from the Major. Very cheap in those days!
Unfortuateley when we moved here I left mine with a mate in England.
He always had an add in I think Guns Review. If not, it was The Shooting Times.
Regarding torador barrels;
We see a few in the style that also show up more in Oman.
The ones we see stocked up in India appear more in the north.
Here is one stocked up in Sindh;
The picture is not the best, but the flutes to the barrel can still be seen.
I know Rick and I have chewed the fat over these before.
They are often called Omani barrels, but to be honest, the Omani stocking up of these lovely creations is some of the worst and ugly looking creations on earth! This leads me to think (Think!) that these barrels were traded into Oman.
Some say Persian barrels, some say Indian made.
What is strange, is that these barrels are not usually encountered in India Or Persia.....nothing like the average and very nice Persian barrels.
The Closest in looks, is a barrel once owned by Henry V111!

Below are a some pictures of one of mine, Then of

a matchlock belonging to Henry V111

Of course Henry V111's gun is breech loading, but the heavy fluting is very similar.