WHY SHOOT REPRO GUNS

[Sam squanch]

I would shoot an original military musket that had a thick heavy breech. Civilian arms, I won’t risk my safety.

 

[TFoley]

Well, you know, I've been a member of my UK gun club for almost 25 years new, and apart from my original long rifle, I know of just FOUR original genuine mid to late 1800's American long arms, and TWO genuine pistols. Our club has a membership approaching 500 now, BTW, and we shoot everything we are allowed to. I have NEVER seen any kind of genuine long rifle apart from my own - at all. Ever. And I've been a shooter here in UK, on and off, since the late 60's. My own long rifle attracted so much interest when I displayed it that one of the obviously enthused stole it right there and then.

Where our new friend from Nottingham is seeing all the millions of genuine antiques is not quite clear, but for sure it isn't on a range near me.

I'm also VERY confused about ' You lot "Americans" have in the past fought just about every other nation on your home ground.' How does THAT work out? Who, for instance?

 

[HiDesertHunter]

a brand new Italian copy and it was horrible! I would not dream of shooting one.

Dunks, can you please describe what made the Italian copy 'horrible'?

In all fairness some of the very early Italian repros were not so nice but the big Italian names started getting their 'act' together in the 1980's and today are producing some very nice guns.

 

[Sidney Smith]

Hey Dunks, what kind of permit were you required to obtain to purchase and own that beautiful original? What kind of permission were you required to get to buy the powder you use in your firearm? You make it appear as if you are in a firearms Xanadu. I can buy my powder over the counter no questions asked. I can get my muzzleloaders mailed to me. Bet you cant do that. Well who knows now that Sleepy Joe got elected but for the time being at least its still a lot easier to get stuff than what you guys have to go through.

Your perception of Americans swimming in original guns is just that, a perception, and its a wrong one.

The main reason most of us shoot repro guns is availability. The second is price. The third is quality. I personally would not trust an original muzzle loader to hold up to continual shooting. And when it does break, then what? You cant just order replacement parts for those originals. And if you are able to obtain parts, guess what theyre going to be repros.

 

[HiDesertHunter]

Another huge funnel for Civil War era (and earlier) guns was Francis Bannerman.

If you are unaware of Francis Bannerman I would suggest you take a few minutes and read about him on the link I provided.

Basically he was the #1 buyer of any and all U.S. arms, equipment and military surplus to ultimately resell to other countries, mostly small and emerging, for their fledgling militaries.

It is unknown how many surplus guns he bought and sold but it was literally in the 100s of thousands.
https://www.guns.com/news/2015/11/07/bannermans-legacy-ultimate-army-navy-store

 

[Tom A Hawk]

The genius and artistry of the old masters not withstanding, I suspect that, due to advancements in metallurgy and fabrication methods over the past 300 years, guns of current manufacture may be of superior quality. Some of the pieces made by our own members are absolutely breath taking. Its great to admire the originals, especially in consideration of what they had to work with, but they are historical artifacts of a past age.

 

[HiDesertHunter]

I suspect that, due to advancements in metallurgy and fabrication methods over the past 300 years, guns of current manufacture may be of superior quality.

This goes without saying.

While some of the early, original guns had very nice fit and finish the quality of the metal was questionable with varying 'ingredients'

A lot of early metals did not have much carbon in them so they were more of an 'iron' content and had questionable strength.

Bottom line is shooting any early firearm of unknown metal composition should be approached carefully and only after competent inspection.

 

[Ranger94]

I inherited from my Dad - original 1863 Robinson Musket, Colt Army 1860, Colt Navy 1851, Remington New Model Army 1863. The musket is in original unmodified condition, the cap n ball revolvers have been modified slightly over the last 160 years or so. We used to shoot all of them up until the early 1980s.

I am a coward, I no longer shoot them, but do take very good care of them. I have other muzzleloading toys that keep me busy. If these repro toys get damaged or break, I will get upset (none have been damaged or broken yet). If the above 4 weapons get damaged, I would have a stroke and never forgive myself. For good or bad, I am paranoid about shooting them.

 

[Bob McBride]

I’m a ‘64 Chevelle man. They still run just fine and any man who’d put one in a museum instead of back on the road deserves to drive a Pinto for eternity.

 

[griffiga]

I have several originals that I shoot regularly, but I don’t load them too hot. If I’m looking for a good goose or turkey load, I’ll use my pedersoli because of the strength or the modern steel barrel.

 

[Smokey Plainsman]

Many 42 Aston pistols are still rock solid and shootable.

 

[Rudyard]

Where the Gentleman from Nottingham get his notions from I know not. But when I was active in the UK very few had replicas you might see one or two at a clay shoot but most had original guns I joined the MLAGB in 1961 or 2 ,We Formed a Sheffield Branch we where most all young many of that generation are dead I'me still alive & certainly never lost interest. What Felt Wad is saying is that early wave of interest has past mostly it's older shooters & relatively few younger ones , Supply & demand favours the younger shooters or collectors . I made and shot replicas or 'New guns' as I prefer to call them soley following traditional styles and other than as stock I never bought nor owned any replica other than a Navy Colt once . Nice revolver & a much dodged up Indian musket composed of three broken ones . I have made near 200 'New guns' & I am wont to be ' my own best customer' so never felt the need to buy a factory replica . I favour old barrels never joined the ' modern is best' notion if I do Champion the Replica's saves the over use of originals .
Rudyard

 

[DUNKS]

Thank you all for responding. I now have a better idea of why.
Thanks.

 

[Artificer]

Thank you all for responding. I now have a better idea of why.
Thanks.

I was involved with International Muzzle Loading Competition for quite a few years from 1980 to 1998 actively and inactively for about another decade. In 1980, I was amazed at all the original firearms being shot and how the U.S. and some other teams were trying to get reproductions allowed, with not much success at that time. There wasn't a lot of interest because to many Euopeans, guns shot in the competition were considered "old," but not really antique. One British Shooter informed me something had to be at least 500 years old before they considered it an antique.

Finding original guns in 1980, that were in good enough safety and operating condition and accurate enough for International Competition was not easy even then. When they could be found, they were not inexpensive and often much more so than reproductions.

At the World Championships at Wedgnok, the Midlands, UK in both 1996 and 1998; I was the ONLY Team Armourer on any of the International Teams. In 1996, I did a few minor things for our Team Members the first couple of days of practice, until late in the morning of the second day. Then our Team Captain came up with the Captain of the Swiss Team and his Wife. She was a strong competitor in the Ladies 100 meter prone match, but her rifle's lock was busted. Her rifle was very good quality, though a rather plain original Percussion Jaeger rifle. Turns out some incompetent POS, who called himself a gunsmith, used a snag grinder on the tumbler and sear to do a "trigger job." After informing them I may be able to fix it, I asked the Swiss Team Captain what the rifle was worth? He informed me about $ 14,000.00.

My "work bench" was a picnic table to which we used large C Clamps to secure the Vise. I asked for an Oxy Acetylene Torch, but could only get a portable Propane Torch Kit, which I bought in town. So I had no way to weld metal back onto the tumbler and sear. I examined it for about 10 minutes and informed them I might be able to save the lock so she could shoot it during the competition, but they would need a REAL Gunsmith or Machinist to properly fix it after the matches. I spent the rest of that day until the range closed at 7:00 PM hand filing and stoning the lock parts. The following morning, I was able to get just enough surface hardness on it, that it would last for the competition along with a pretty good trigger job. The Lady was delighted. She won the Gold Medal with the rifle. The only problem was she beat our Best Lady on the U.S. Team with it and she was NOT happy I fixed it that well.

Two years later, same range, same picnic table work bench, another Propane Torch Kit and my same Team Captain called me over to the other part of the range, where a small group of French Shooters were excitedly talking. When he introduced me to them, one of them stuck a flintlock pistol in my hand so quickly, I almost dropped it. Right off the bat I knew this was a super high quality original Saw Handled Flintlock Dueling and Target pistol, circa 1810. Then I looked on the barrel and almost lost my breath as "N. Boutet" was engraved on it. I asked them if it was made by the Master Gunsmith Nicolas Boutet? Their interpreter didn't understand that until I said, "Le Armourer to Napolean?" (I only studied two years of German in High School, but never French.) Now THAT he understood and began excitedly saying, "Oui, Oui !!" I swear I felt the blood in my cheeks emptying out and looked very flushed. I asked what the Pistol was worth and after the French discussed it a while, they apologized that going from Francs to Pounds to Dollars, they weren't exactly sure, but somewhere between $ 75,000.00 and $ 90,000.00. My heart almost stopped, so I informed them I had to examine the pistol closer, so I took it to my work bench.

At this match, I had what we jokingly called called my apprentice with me. He was a 73 year old retired Master Precision Machinist, who forgot more about machining than I will ever know, though he didn't know much about working guns. He leaned over as I was getting out my super thin Screw Driver bits and whispered, "Gus, that pistol is worth so much, I'd be scared to death of working on that." I exhaled strongly and informed him, it might not mean anything if I could not get the lock off to see what was going on. To my surprise, the lock came off without much difficulty and then I discovered the tumbler and sear looked like it had been abused by the same incompetent Gunsmith using a Snag Grinder, I had found on the Swiss Captain's Wife's Rifle, two years before. I gently laid the lock and pistol on the work pad and had to get up and walk around for a few minutes, I was so upset. When my "apprentice" asked me what was wrong, I informed him I was in the presence of a Master of Master Gunsmiths and far beyond my capability to make such a fine pistol. My blood was boiling that his work would be so desecrated by an Incompetent POS Butcher, who dared to call himself a gunsmith. God help me if I could have gotten my hands on that POS Butcher, as I wanted to beat him to within an inch of his life in that moment. My apprentice asked me if I could fix it, and I said to honor the memory of Nicolaus, I would do my best.

Fortunately I had two days to work on it and it took most of that time to do it. When it was done, I got with my Team Captain that I wanted to speak with him, the French Team Captain, and his Interpreter. (Actually my Team Captain could speak better French than the Interpreter could speak English.) I asked how many rounds were fired in the Pistol Competition? My Team Captain told me they fired 18 rounds and scored the top 15. Between the two of us, we got it across to them that I figured the fix would hold for a few more shots, but not many more. So I most strongly advised he fire only two or three practice rounds to get used to the trigger. They were very excited I was able to fix it at all.

The afternoon of two days later, I was slowly "walking the line" behind the shooters' area while they shot. From my years of being a Team Armorer, I knew this helped them psychologically, because I was there to help should they have a problem. I smiled and gave "thumbs up" to my shooters as they looked around between shots and they were appreciative. I got a little over half way down the line when I was surrounded by extremely excited French Shooters. They were pumping my hand, kissing my cheeks, offering me to drink from open bottles of rather expensive champagne and in a most jolly mood. Finally my Team Captain came up and I asked him what was going on? He laughed and informed me their Team Captain just placed 7th overall in the Pistol Competition and they wanted to thank me for working on his pistol. I leaned over close to him and said, "Gee, not that I want to appear unappreciative, but all this fuss for SEVENTH place?" He laughed loudly and said in a low voice, "Gus, you don't understand. This is the first time any French Team Member has done any better than about 18th place." My jaw dropped. Then in low voice I replied, "Well, I hope this got our Team some political capital." He grinned from ear to ear and informed me it was a huge help.

Bottom line, most of the original firearms used in World Muzzle Loading Championships cost much more than most shooters could or can afford.

Gus

 

[Feltwad]

During the 18th and 19thh centuries wasn't Britain in a state of constant war, sometimes fighting multiple wars at once ?
With that much fighting, gun production must have been enormous. I'll bet there are still warehouses full of guns somewhere.

The UK has ware houses full of 18th and 19th century of old guns well I have not yet found one , most guns of that period were built for export to the colonies such has India, Africa , Nepal and others with production largely increased in war time .If there should be ware houses full of this period of guns then America should be well up on the list because during the civil war both London and Birmingham gun trade supplied it with 1,078,205 arms mostly Enfield's so where did that lot go
Feltwad

 

[Justin.44]

Along with all the reasons original ML guns are scarce is one many do not know of - a LOT of rifles were sacrificed to make fences out of the barrels!

Here in St. Louis at Grant's Farm there's a fence made out of 2,500 civil war barrels around Ulysses S. Grant's cabin.

 

[TFoley]

Hey Dunks, what kind of permit were you required to obtain to purchase and own that beautiful original? What kind of permission were you required to get to buy the powder you use in your firearm? You make it appear as if you are in a firearms Xanadu. I can buy my powder over the counter no questions asked. I can get my muzzleloaders mailed to me. Bet you cant do that. Well who knows now that Sleepy Joe got elected but for the time being at least its still a lot easier to get stuff than what you guys have to go through.

Your perception of Americans swimming in original guns is just that, a perception, and its a wrong one.

The main reason most of us shoot repro guns is availability. The second is price. The third is quality. I personally would not trust an original muzzle loader to hold up to continual shooting. And when it does break, then what? You cant just order replacement parts for those originals. And if you are able to obtain parts, guess what theyre going to be repros.

1. To own it to admire, no documentation is required, since it is a real antique without any doubt.

2. To SHOOT it, you must -

a. be a fully paid-up member of a gun club, which

b. enables you to apply to the county constabulary for a Firearms Certificate which authorises you to purchase and possess a Section 1 [rifled] firearm]. If it was a smoothie, then it's a mite easier to obtain a Section 2 [smoothbore] certificate.

c. to acquire/transport/possess and store Black Powder, here, as in most places, a Class 1 explosive, you must have an explosives license - obtained from the same police force as your FAC. You also must have a Home Office-approved storage box - I made mine to the on-line drawings.

Before Mr Minshall gets his lick in - there are many original rifles and muskets being shot by members of the MLAGB, but we are talking here of generally high-quality arms, and it must be said, arms that have not been standing in the corner of a barn for 150 years like many older American examples have.

Also note that there are many locations here in UK where the walls and halls are literally covered with original muskets from the Brown Bess onwards - one such place has upwards of a THOUSAND mint examples in one hall...they are called stately homes, and are more often than not part of the National trust, and as such, will never be sold. In Portsmouth, HMS Warrior has around five or six hundred Parker-Hale short rifles, and an uncountable number of percussion revolvers - all replicas, on display in the ready-racks.

 

[HotelBravo]

I have been told that when Navy Arms Company began making reproductions, they rebuilt muskets used in the Civil War and created parts to make serviceable rifles. If this is true, then many "repros" are actually being fired in the US.

 

[LuVerne Schumann]

I’m a ‘64 Chevelle man. They still run just fine and any man who’d put one in a museum instead of back on the road deserves to drive a Pinto for eternity.

That is one of my favorite cars. I drive a vintage mustang myself.

The paint, interior, glass and top are original. All the moving bits are new, as it was parked for 30 years, and that ruined those bits.

Which brings up a point. Use doesn't destroy mechanical things. Abuse and lack of maintenance does. And putting them in museums.

Warbirds, and high end racing cars benefit greatly from use, as people start fixing them up, despite the commonly held perception that flying warbirds and racing rare cars leads to their destruction. While some are "destroyed" during a crash, the mechanics just pick up the pieces, wash the pilot/driver bits out of them, and restart the restoration project from what's left over. And this restoration drives replacement part manufacture, which results in more on the road/in the sky.

Old guns went away not when they started to wear out, they went away when they quit being perceived as being valuable.

 

[watopeka]

Just an idle thought. Why are so many folk on these forums shooting new repro guns? You lot "Americans" have in the past fought just about every other nation on your home ground. There must be literally thousands of original guns, beautiful things in perfect condition for sale, so why buy new and made abroad..? I am in the UK and have just obtained my first muzzle loader, having only ever shot the unmentionables. My ML was made in 1830 ish and is a work of art. Saw a guy at the clay ground last week with a brand new Italian copy and it was horrible! I would not dream of shooting one.
Just a thought.

Because $$$$$