WHY SHOOT REPRO GUNS

[Capnball]

Just an idle thought. Why are so many folk on these forums shooting new repro guns? You lot "Americans" have in the past fought just about every other nation on your home ground. There must be literally thousands of original guns, beautiful things in perfect condition for sale, so why buy new and made abroad..? I am in the UK and have just obtained my first muzzle loader, having only ever shot the unmentionables. My ML was made in 1830 ish and is a work of art. Saw a guy at the clay ground last week with a brand new Italian copy and it was horrible! I would not dream of shooting one.
Just a thought.

I have an original 1861 Bridesberg .58 I restored from a barn find. I also have a Pedersoli Kentucky long rifle replica in .45 as well as an unmentionable in 50. They're all great but each for a different reason. Believe it or not, we're not awash in antique firearms. A good quality "SAFE" antique musket could easily be a couple grand. A Pedersoli? Like half and completely safe. The fit and finish are excellent. It's never going to be as nice as an original but the difference is not so bad as to make me an original SNOB.
I enjoy the sport, I enjoy the history and I've made some solid friends on this forum (and others like it) and no matter what they shoot, I can find something nice or helpful to say about their firearms. You never know who might have an answer to a problem you're having with your gun or that impossible to find part. Good luck, welcome and we look forward to your years of knowledge and expertise on your original antique.
Neil

 

[Art Caputo]

I can see Dunks point. Over the years I have felt the same way about various “classic” unmentionable firearms, but, “when they were in good operational condition, available, and within my means”. I have some that I have used for decades, others that were eventually retired or sold. Unfortunately, for the type of original muzzleloader I would find personally desirable, it has been near impossible to meet all the aforementioned criteria. Good news is that, other then the gratification of carrying a true original, those muzzleloadersI do find desirable can be closely reproduced to my satisfaction. IMO.

 

[Billy Boy]

Just an idle thought. Why are so many folk on these forums shooting new repro guns? You lot "Americans" have in the past fought just about every other nation on your home ground. There must be literally thousands of original guns, beautiful things in perfect condition for sale, so why buy new and made abroad..? I am in the UK and have just obtained my first muzzle loader, having only ever shot the unmentionables. My ML was made in 1830 ish and is a work of art. Saw a guy at the clay ground last week with a brand new Italian copy and it was horrible! I would not dream of shooting one.
Just a thought.

The guns you describe do exist here in fair numbers - in museums....but the security is so tight in those places iv’e almost given up on an original in excellent condition.

 

[Boatncamp]

I remember reading in an issue of Black Powder Times in the late 1970's that the U. S. Government had issued a million dollar contract to some company to destroy thousands of Trap door Springfields that were then 100 years old and deemed surplus. They were not to be sold to the public. I have to think that other muzzleloaders of Civil War period met the same fate.

I also remember in the 1960's playing with a cap and ball revolver that my father had laying around on his woodworking bench. It disappeared sometime in the 1970's when NY enacted a mandatory 1 year in prison for an unregistered pistol. What my father never realized is that the law did not apply to that pistol. From what I can remember about it, it was not some common Colt or Remington, which would today mean that it could have been worth even more. Sad memories.

 

[Griz44Mag]

Just an idle thought. Why are so many folk on these forums shooting new repro guns? You lot "Americans" have in the past fought just about every other nation on your home ground. There must be literally thousands of original guns, beautiful things in perfect condition for sale, so why buy new and made abroad..? I am in the UK and have just obtained my first muzzle loader, having only ever shot the unmentionables. My ML was made in 1830 ish and is a work of art. Saw a guy at the clay ground last week with a brand new Italian copy and it was horrible! I would not dream of shooting one.
Just a thought.

As simple as it comes. Cost and availability.
There simply are not enough originals for everyone.
Not everyone can afford an original - they do come at a premium.
There is always an issue with original guns and original materials being safe to use.
There are a lot of reasons why a repro would be a better choice than an original.
The only thing I see wrong here is an elitist attitude. That attitude drives folks away from the black powder sport.

 

[Artificer]

The ONLY factory made reproductions I ever ran across that were as good as originals, if not better, were the REAL Parker Hale Enfield Models made completely in the UK. The locks were so high quality, they were a JOY to work on compared to other repro UnCivil War Muskets that ranged from just OK down to downright junk. The barrels were superb and shot extremely well as well.

I began doing trigger jobs and various gunsmithing repair work at the 1974 Spring Nationals of the North South Skirmish Association. Back then, Sutlers (Vendors) like Scottie Moyer, had large containers of original UnCivil War Parts that had never been used. As late as the last time I went in 2005, there were still many original New/Old Stock Parts available, but of course the prices had gone up significantly in those 31 years.

There were also some Sutlers, like the guys at "the Gator Den" who made really good repair parts for Smith Carbines and some other guns. One guy and I hope my memory isn't failing too badly by the name of Richard Cross (?) made some superb original lock plates and tumblers and some other things part time as a way to fund his shooting. However, perhaps the guy who got more original guns shooting than anyone else was/is Bobby Hoyt who did barrel re-linings and seemed to almost magically "stretch" barrels back to their original length. Thanks to folks like these, many old guns have been rescued and returned to active shooting.

Gus

 

[Artificer]

I have been told that when Navy Arms Company began making reproductions, they rebuilt muskets used in the Civil War and created parts to make serviceable rifles. If this is true, then many "repros" are actually being fired in the US.

I indirectly worked for Val Forgett, JR (the guy who started Navy Arms) for a number of years at the NSSA Nationals. Val never made anything himself, personally, as he was not a machinist or gunsmith. He did most of his business out of his car trunk at collector gun shows for years before starting Navy Arms by going to Italy and getting a replica Colt and then a replica Remington Zouave made for use at NSSA matches. Val amassed his fortune from having various repro's made in Italy and then selling them in the U.S., as well as buying and selling collector guns and full sized cannon.

Gus

 

[Bob McBride]

The ONLY factory made reproductions I ever ran across that were as good as originals, if not better, were the REAL Parker Hale Enfield Models made completely in the UK. The locks were so high quality, they were a JOY to work on compared to other repro UnCivil War Muskets that ranged from just OK down to downright junk. The barrels were superb and shot extremely well as well.

I began doing trigger jobs and various gunsmithing repair work at the 1974 Spring Nationals of the North South Skirmish Association. Back then, Sutlers (Vendors) like Scottie Moyer, had large containers of original UnCivil War Parts that had never been used. As late as the last time I went in 2005, there were still many original New/Old Stock Parts available, but of course the prices had gone up significantly in those 31 years.

There were also some Sutlers, like the guys at "the Gator Den" who made really good repair parts for Smith Carbines and some other guns. One guy and I hope my memory isn't failing too badly by the name of Richard Cross (?) made some superb original lock plates and tumblers and some other things part time as a way to fund his shooting. However, perhaps the guy who got more original guns shooting than anyone else was/is Bobby Hoyt who did barrel re-linings and seemed to almost magically "stretch" barrels back to their original length. Thanks to folks like these, many old guns have been rescued and returned to active shooting.

Gus

Excellent example. The UK made PH is arguably in the same ballpark as many of the original handmade P53's and on the open market today demand more money than a very good shootable original....

 

[Josephg]

I shoot whatever I want. Oblivious to peer pressure. I do have one Italian reproduction. A .451 Gibbs by Pedersoli. I think they did a great job wth that rifle.
When I got started muzzle loader shooting the cheap garish reproductions was all we knew. My first rifle was a Navy Arms Kentucky rifle, a well made rifle at that time. The quality was high. Then one day I received a Golden Age Arms catalog that cost 2.50 and that woke me up to what one could build and shoot. New rifles built very close to original American rifles from the past. Now I shoot originals or custom reproductions.
When you're out shooting game with a accurate cheap/affordable reproduction you won't care how cool you look to others.

 

[Artificer]

Excellent example. The UK made PH is arguably in the same ballpark as many of the original handmade P53's and on the open market today demand more money than a very good shootable original....

Thank you. NSSA shooters favored the 2 Band Rifle over the 2 Band Rifle Musket for shooting and loved the PH Musketoon for Carbine Matches. I loved the way we used PH lock parts to fix or rebuild original locks that were made on the Interchangeable Pattern. I was VERY sorry when they stopped making them in the UK. In 1996 when we went to Wedgnok, UK for the World Championships; I had put quite some money away hoping to buy any remaining PH tumbers, sears, main springs and other parts, but they had all been almost completely sold out a few years before. Just my luck. Sigh.

Gus

 

[Essayons!]

Just an idle thought. Why are so many folk on these forums shooting new repro guns? You lot "Americans" have in the past fought just about every other nation on your home ground. There must be literally thousands of original guns, beautiful things in perfect condition for sale, so why buy new and made abroad..? I am in the UK and have just obtained my first muzzle loader, having only ever shot the unmentionables. My ML was made in 1830 ish and is a work of art. Saw a guy at the clay ground last week with a brand new Italian copy and it was horrible! I would not dream of shooting one.
Just a thought.

If you find an antique flintlock in shooting condition(rare), the cost prohibits the use; more if an investment. The more modern cartridge firearms, more likely to use originals.

 

[Feltwad]

Excellent example. The UK made PH is arguably in the same ballpark as many of the original handmade P53's and on the open market today demand more money than a very good shootable original....

The reason why these repros made by Parker-Hale were good and so close to the originals was mainly due to them using the original dies . Their first was the musketoon which I found was the poorest of them all mainly because on a 100 yard range the 577 Minnie had a fault of cart wheeling down the range. Most people in the states complain about originals been too expressive with not many to choose from Here in the UK it is quite the opposite repros are more expense than the average original but not has good .In my opinion why buy a cheap looking repro which is factory made when you can buy an original that is built by English gun makers the best gun makers in the world then and now and is hand made by a craftsman.
Feltwad

Parker Hale Alex Henry Rifle

 

[Crow-Feather]

There are companies that have to be kept in business after the old rifles are all behind locked safes. I am doing my best to keep them in business.

 

[firemanjim68]

I have a friend that lives in the U.K. and he says that access to Brown Bess muskets aren't that much of a problem since there are still a lot of parts available.

Here in the U.S. the cost of original and custom muzzleloaders can be prohibitive to most budgets.
The best most of us can do is buy repros.....and then tweak them down the line with a custom stock or aftermarket parts.

 

[Crow-Feather]

[QUOTE
Excellent example. The UK made PH is arguably in the same ballpark as many of the original handmade P53's and on the open market today demand more money than a very good shootable original....
[/QUOTE]
I don't want to fight a war, I want to target shoot and shoot an occasional deer.

 

[JCKelly]

TNGhost - I must take exception to one thing "...however they are not made with the modern steels we have now." The very best muzzle loading rifle barrels were the .58 cal barrels made at Springfield Armory about 1860 on. They used a good grade of wrought iron, meaning one with fairly low amount of slag and no seams. They roll forged them, a process used to make steel pipe through about the middle of the 20th century. And they proof tested them. The "Modern steels" used for almost all American made muzzle loading barrels have added sulfur, phosphorous and lead to make them machine easily. With all this stuff such "Modern" steel bars could not even be made in American steel mills until around WWII when fast machining became essential to War Time production. These free-machining steels are not intended to withstand the stress of repeated firing in a gun, even with black powder which many of you think only develops low pressures in a firearm.
The best - in terms of resisting the stress of firing, not necessarily accuracy - steel muzzle loading barrels today are those made by the Spanish and the Italians. They use real honest-to-Gosh low sulfur steel meant for rifles.
Anyway I would no longer shoot an antique gun for most of the reasons given by others here, as well as no, all those old barrels were not well made. As a teenager I did shoot Civil War (Mr. Lincoln's war, to you) surplus European muskets, along with one circa 1810 British flint carbine, probably used by Southern cavalry in N Carolina. I did fire that flint carbine a few times at a Michigan get-together in the 1980's, about the time I learned what my very accurate American barrel was made of. In retrospect, probably wasn't a good idea.
And yes, I am a pain-in-the-xxx metallurgist, have been for something over a half century. Always interested in firearms, worked with heat treated steels, high nickel alloys, every where from Black & Decker through jet engine manufacture.

 

[Bob McBride]

[QUOTE
Excellent example. The UK made PH is arguably in the same ballpark as many of the original handmade P53's and on the open market today demand more money than a very good shootable original....

I don't want to fight a war, I want to target shoot and shoot an occasional deer.

I’ll keep that in mind.

 

[mooman76]

I was lucky enough to p/u one at a pawn shop a few years ago. It needed a little work but not much to get it shootable. It just needed a nipple and a bolt to hold the lock in place. 32 cal with a long heavy barrel from around the mid 1800s. A very pain looking rifle but I'm not much into the fancy ones with allot of brass anyway. By todays standards on modern guns it is in poor shape but considering the age it is in good shape. Still very accurate. It shows many signs of being repaired and repaired over the years. I always wanted once since I started shooting MLs but thought it unlikely I would ever find one in my price range.

 

[Britsmoothy]

1. To own it to admire, no documentation is required, since it is a real antique without any doubt.

2. To SHOOT it, you must -

a. be a fully paid-up member of a gun club, which

b. enables you to apply to the county constabulary for a Firearms Certificate which authorises you to purchase and possess a Section 1 [rifled] firearm]. If it was a smoothie, then it's a mite easier to obtain a Section 2 [smoothbore] certificate.

c. to acquire/transport/possess and store Black Powder, here, as in most places, a Class 1 explosive, you must have an explosives license - obtained from the same police force as your FAC. You also must have a Home Office-approved storage box - I made mine to the on-line drawings.

Before Mr Minshall gets his lick in - there are many original rifles and muskets being shot by members of the MLAGB, but we are talking here of generally high-quality arms, and it must be said, arms that have not been standing in the corner of a barn for 150 years like many older American examples have.

Also note that there are many locations here in UK where the walls and halls are literally covered with original muskets from the Brown Bess onwards - one such place has upwards of a THOUSAND mint examples in one hall...they are called stately homes, and are more often than not part of the National trust, and as such, will never be sold. In Portsmouth, HMS Warrior has around five or six hundred Parker-Hale short rifles, and an uncountable number of percussion revolvers - all replicas, on display in the ready-racks.

No sir. You don't need to be a member of a club to obtain and shoot a smoothbore gun that meets the legal requirements so as to class it a shotgun. A shotgun licence shall be granted to the applicant on application for a shotgun license. There is no onus on the applicant to provide a "good reason" to own a shotgun/s.

 

[Britsmoothy]

Excellent example. The UK made PH is arguably in the same ballpark as many of the original handmade P53's and on the open market today demand more money than a very good shootable original....

To be honest the parkerhales are not as good as the original Enfield.
The Enfield barrels were mated to the stock correctly. The PH fails in this area!